avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

joe_nj

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
88
There are several things I haven't understood about replacing a bulkhead and the use of foam cushioning or fillet joints or both, and tabbing, having never done this or seen it done before.

I thought the purpose of the foam or whatever (do you mean real peanut butter?) would be to place a cushion between the bulkhead and the hull to reduce the risk of a hard spot. But if you then cover the foam with hard filleting, does that defeat the purpose by creating a hardened structure in the form of filleting contacting the hull? Is the answer that the filleting would be flexible enough, much more so than the wood, and would not create hard spots? (My thought is to use a 2"x10"x27" piece of pressure treated wood for the bulkhead, replacing the 3/4" rotted plywood.)

If you tab over the foam with mat/woven roving/mat, is the hardened fiberglass also flexible and not likely to cause a hard spot?

I've understood that instead of the foam, I could just use some spacer to hold the bulkhead away from the hull then use filleting to suspend the bulkhead in place. Does that filleting withstand the pounding of the hull against waves over the years?

Is there any reason to do both filleting and fiberglassing? Is filleting enough without adding the fiberglass?

I am thinking that I should practice this operation with some scrap wood before attempting the real thing on the boat but I would like to understand these issues first.

Choice of Foam:
Some books (Fiberglass boat repair manual and Fiberglass boat repairs Illustrated) mention foam choices like airex, divinycell, or klegecell, but in looking at those product lines, it's not clear which foam is appropriate for the cushioning. Can someone answer that?

I've seen some postings that say just pick up some foam from a home improvement center. Is the purpose of the foam only temporary until I add the filleting or the fiberglassing so this is just as good as the airex?

Apparently there is a difference of opinion on the type of home builders foam (pink or blue?) but I haven't paid attention to that because I don't mind spending a little more to do the job right once.

I have had trouble finding anything on the preferred thickness of the foam but it sounds as though 1/2" to 3/4" will do. Any suggestions on that?

I have understood a major advantage of doing this is that it solves the problem for me of trying to cut the bulkhead in a shape that matches the shape of the hull. I might be able to get the old bulkhead out in one piece but a lot of it has rotted away, especially on the bottom where it would be most critical to match the shape.

I spent a few hours going through the postings but have not found answers to most of these questions. Does anyone care to help?

I also have to replace a stretch of rotted core but that's another issue.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

This is an area of the rebuild on small boats that is over thought and stressed over more than it needs to be.

All you need to do is not allow plywood to come in contact with the hull in small isolated spots, these are what creates hard spots. Whether you use foam, putty, caulk or nothing really doesn't make a difference, you just don't want plywood to come in contact with the hull.

Plywood is very stiff, and if only a spot or two come in contact it "may" create a problem, sometimes just a bulge, or possibly some cracks too. Most small boats when built new don't use anything to bed the plywood, its just laid down directly on the hull and it doesn't normally cause the possible problems. On larger hulls it can be more of an issue, so more attention is paid to it.

Its a good practice to leave a gap, the size of the gap isn't all that important as long as it doesn't touch, but not doing it isn't normally a problem on a small boat. If you're using dimensional lumber its less of an issue because its not as hard or rigid as plywood.
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

yEH, avoid direct wood on glass, its not as important on a 14' hull but over 20' there can be larger panels of open glass hull.
Its important to run the glass up the stringer and across the hull bottom to spread the load, the glass becomes a doubler of sorts, just copy the original.

See the pics for the induced hard spot.
 

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Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
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Messages
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Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

There are several things I haven't understood about replacing a bulkhead and the use of foam cushioning or fillet joints or both, and tabbing, having never done this or seen it done before.

I thought the purpose of the foam or whatever (do you mean real peanut butter?) would be to place a cushion between the bulkhead and the hull to reduce the risk of a hard spot. But if you then cover the foam with hard filleting, does that defeat the purpose by creating a hardened structure in the form of filleting contacting the hull? Is the answer that the filleting would be flexible enough, much more so than the wood, and would not create hard spots? (My thought is to use a 2"x10"x27" piece of pressure treated wood for the bulkhead, replacing the 3/4" rotted plywood.)

If you tab over the foam with mat/woven roving/mat, is the hardened fiberglass also flexible and not likely to cause a hard spot?

I've understood that instead of the foam, I could just use some spacer to hold the bulkhead away from the hull then use filleting to suspend the bulkhead in place. Does that filleting withstand the pounding of the hull against waves over the years?

Is there any reason to do both filleting and fiberglassing? Is filleting enough without adding the fiberglass?

I am thinking that I should practice this operation with some scrap wood before attempting the real thing on the boat but I would like to understand these issues first.

Choice of Foam:
Some books (Fiberglass boat repair manual and Fiberglass boat repairs Illustrated) mention foam choices like airex, divinycell, or klegecell, but in looking at those product lines, it's not clear which foam is appropriate for the cushioning. Can someone answer that?

I've seen some postings that say just pick up some foam from a home improvement center. Is the purpose of the foam only temporary until I add the filleting or the fiberglassing so this is just as good as the airex?

Apparently there is a difference of opinion on the type of home builders foam (pink or blue?) but I haven't paid attention to that because I don't mind spending a little more to do the job right once.

I have had trouble finding anything on the preferred thickness of the foam but it sounds as though 1/2" to 3/4" will do. Any suggestions on that?

I have understood a major advantage of doing this is that it solves the problem for me of trying to cut the bulkhead in a shape that matches the shape of the hull. I might be able to get the old bulkhead out in one piece but a lot of it has rotted away, especially on the bottom where it would be most critical to match the shape.

I spent a few hours going through the postings but have not found answers to most of these questions. Does anyone care to help?

I also have to replace a stretch of rotted core but that's another issue.

This Is ONE GOOD POST here !!

Joe..this should be a Sticky IMO... without a doubt..

YD.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Imagine Energy..thrusting and moving around your hull.... Lbs/sq" kinda thing...

This is why we have to Look at things very closely as FG contructs or repair..

Why..how..

Bulks moved fore..or aft could bake a cake..but there is a Curve .. If you will..

Construction is just that m8....Its just some dude and a Plant that makes FRP boats that falls in line of requirements..thats simple..

Now..you want to recontruct..then you Can ( and more then likely ) rebuild in a way that is Far beyond the OEM construction..

Hard points Vs. Soft points... You can excite reasons for Each way m8..

For argument sake..some say NO Flex Vs. Flex boats....

There are reasons why for each..

Its what you NEED out of your stringer..or bulk..or floor..or need of the boat you have..

You want a Tank..build with no soft points..and add stringers or support build for bulks...

Big build boats will not accout that your going transatlantic in your 360 sunbridge ..

Good post non the less :)

YD.
 

lowvlot

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
231
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Imagine Energy..thrusting and moving around your hull.... Lbs/sq" kinda thing...

This is why we have to Look at things very closely as FG contructs or repair..

Why..how..

Bulks moved fore..or aft could bake a cake..but there is a Curve .. If you will..

Construction is just that m8....Its just some dude and a Plant that makes FRP boats that falls in line of requirements..thats simple..

Now..you want to recontruct..then you Can ( and more then likely ) rebuild in a way that is Far beyond the OEM construction..

Hard points Vs. Soft points... You can excite reasons for Each way m8..

For argument sake..some say NO Flex Vs. Flex boats....

There are reasons why for each..

Its what you NEED out of your stringer..or bulk..or floor..or need of the boat you have..

You want a Tank..build with no soft points..and add stringers or support build for bulks...

Big build boats will not accout that your going transatlantic in your 360 sunbridge ..

Good post non the less :)

YD.

HUh??
 

joe_nj

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
88
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Thanks for the quick responses so far to let me know that precision isn't important - just do it without over-engineering it. The two pictures from jonesg are really helpful.

I didn't mention in the first post that I don't think there was originally any space between the plywood and fiberglass. Either Cobalt didn't think it was needed for a 17 footer as jonesg wrote or the bulkhead isn't original on my used 23 year old boat, or it wore away.

I know you're kidding about this being a sticky post. Erikgreen, Dec 16, 2008 asked and answered many questions in his great post on hard spots - that should be a sticky. I've only posted half the message here - questions. We've got a few answers so far. Any more out there?
 

Cadwelder

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
1,780
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

My ProCraft, Astro, and NorrisCraft all was plywood deck right against the hull for about 8 inches on each side or until the first chine of the hull, then went to stringers. All where under 20'.
 

drewpster

Commander
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
2,059
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

I think it is important to point out that fiberglass and wood will flex at different rates. If you hit a big wave or slam in to a big wake the boat will flex.
The worry is that a small hard spot between the wood and the fiberglass will cause a fracture in the glass. This can happen all at once or over time as the hull flexes over the hard spot.
Its true that many boats are built with the wood cores in direct contact with the hull skin, however it is best practice to take steps to prevent possible structural problems in a re-build.
For instance my little tri-hull was built with all of the cores in direct contact except the center stringer. It was set with an air gap under it from the factory originally.

The fillets are meant to serve as a smooth transition for the covering fiberglass to lay in to. Fillets are used in inside corners because the cloth will tend to lift out of a sharp inside corners leaving voids when it hardens. This gives water a place to collect. I made my filleting compound from resin, cabosil (thickener), talc (thickener) and chopped fibers. The chopped fibers serve to add a little strength to the fillet itself to prevent the compound from fracturing over time. Resin and thickener alone will fracture leaving tiny voids. Again, a place for water to collect. Fillets add very little structural strength and they will flex. They are generally small and simply round out the inside corner. Therefore they do not create a hard spot.

Fillets alone will not provide a good bond between the bulkhead and the skin of the hull. You need to either glass in strips down the inside corners (tabbing) of the bulkhead or cover it completely down the sides and on to the hull skin. Or you can do both. I prefer both. I either case the extra step of making fillets prior to glassing will help the cloth lay in to the corners.

The kind of marine structural foam used in boat construction is very different from insulation foam at the home center. I do not recommend anything but marine structural foam intended for that purpose. You can bet that some thoughtful engineering goes on to building boats with structural foam cores. It is also very expensive! That's why you do not see many DIY restorers using it for structural members. If your boat was built using conventional methods and wood cores, I highly recommend you stick to the original design especially in structural components. Unless you are very experienced or willing to work out the engineering involved, you risk building a weak component and a weak boat. My advice...my boat lasted 30+ years being built using wood cores and hand laid glass (shoddy work at that). It will last 30 more as long as I don?t mess it up. I re-did it using the same techniques they did, only better. I bet it goes 35 years next time.

hope this clarifies some things
enjoy
drewp
 

joe_nj

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
88
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Drewp,

Thanks. Your explanation and experience help including the reminder that the fiberglass does not fit corners and sharp bends well hence the recommendations to make the foam cushioning surrounding the bulkhead trapezoidal in shape as one approach or to apply filleting shaped with a curved spatula, something that looks like a tongue depressor, to "ease the curve for tabbing later with fiberglass."

I like your suggestion of covering the bulkhead completely with fiberglass. One of the references I mentioned in the first posting (Vaitses' book) also recommended making a good mechanical connection of the matting / roving to the bulkhead using flat-head screws because wood and fiberglass can separate.

I probably had the wrong idea to replace the plywood with a 2"x10" hardwood instead of sticking with the original design because the 2x10 is a lot heavier than the plywood.

Regarding the section of core that I have to replace next, I would tend to spend the $100 for a 4'x4' or $200 for a 4x8' piece of marine foam that isn't likely to rot rather than use even marine grade plywood. You seem to suggest that I should stick with the marine plywood that I'm replacing because it's what the boat was designed to have there and if I do the job right, it will last longer than the rest of the boat anyway. Sounds like good advice.

When I mentioned the cheap foam option, I think that people talked about using lower grade foam temporarily to suspend the bulkhead before glassing it in but I don't think anyone has suggested using home improvement stuff for core replacement - I haven't paid too much attention to those posts as I don't intend to use that material so I may be misquoting someone. I agree about sticking with marine parts unless it's something non-critical like a CD player.

Joe
 

drewpster

Commander
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
2,059
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

The idea of using cheap foam to suspend the wood off the glass may be a good idea, but then again, it may not. That is my concern. I am not a chemist and it may be fine to use the foam for that purpose. The concern I have is that over time (maybe short time) the foam will break down in the enviroment of the resin. If it does this will leave a void and a place for water to creep in. I prefer to use PL Premium construction glue to do the job. It may be a moot point given that the glue can break down as well, but I do not think it will. Using the glue also has the advantage of holding the parts firmly in place for glassing and it stays flexible when cured. In my opinion it works as a good bedding compound for glassed in parts and helps avoid hard spots across spans. It also inexpensive compared to other 'marine' glues and is readliy available.
The reason I focus on this is because my boat had an abvious void under the keel stringer that was wet and full of water. The keel was layed up very thin originally and obviously had leaked. The water was contained under the stringer and under the glass and ultimately rotted it out. I also had problems with beaching wear in the keel that had to be repaired. I filled the keel and used PL to bed the new stringer. I should be able to run aground in to a rock pile without damage. :D But I do not intend on testing that theory.
 

Mark42

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Boat manufacturers make parts like wood stringers using automated cutting machines. The stringers match the curve of the hull, basically eliminating the issue of hard spots. I suspect the back yard builder's stringer is not cut as accurately, causing hard spots to be a real problem.

PL makes a variety of adhesives. If you check their website, the specs on some indicate they are water proof. Others are not. Sounds to me like using their Premium as a bedding compound is a good idea.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Mark

You are correct, the stringers and bulkheads are either cut with jigs or CNC, the problem is the laminate is fairly uneven due to overlaps, seams, thick areas for more strength and the variables from different people doing the glass work. This all adds up to a fit that may not be all that perfect.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
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Messages
5,581
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

One thing to remember is that Open Pans ( open spots without stringers or bulkheads are prone to "hard points" ) ..

Meaning..if you have your bilge..with a Large Non-supported bulk or stringer can leave cracks on the structure...from the outside in..

Open spots/pans leave more flex then the nonflex of the hull support..

Each boat is different....lams and all...

YD.
 

joe_nj

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
88
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

I like the point that PL Premium remains flexible and holds the bulkhead firmly in place for glassing. Since they have several grades of product with varying degrees of water resistance, I asked the PL premium manufacturer (Locktite/Henkel) which of their products would work best for bonding wood to fiberglass on a boat. They responded that they don't have a marine product. (See below.) The point on this thread is that since we would be glassing over the PL, it wouldn't matter that it's not marine but I doubt they would say that officially and I didn't get into too much detail in my email. Experience has shown that PL Premium does the job well.

Here's their response:

Dear Joe:

Thank you for e-mailing Henkel Corporation. We appreciate your interest in our products. None of our products would be suitable for this application as they are not marine-grade. Thank you for your inquiry. I hope you find this information helpful.

Sincerely,

Consumer Relations Representative
Henkel Corporation
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

Just be sure the PL is more than merely skinned over, it has to be well on the way to cured or the poly resin will turn it into milk.
My stringers are 8 feet long, 3/4" PT ply and 22 inches tall. I glassed them both sides and sealed ends/edges before installing, they were quite heavy ,
a bead of PL was left on the hull for 30 minutes , then the stringer just set on it. Glassed in place.
It worked out fine. All done in less than 2 hrs.

If you use urethane foam as formers for glass stringers it means you're going to need a lot more glasswork to compensate for the absence of wood.
The "marine" foam stringers are a more rigid foam with glass netting, it doesn't add that much strength, its still just foam ...in the big picture.
Rigid reinforced foam vs wood? no contest strength wise. Wood is tough to beat all said and done.
but again, with the marine foam stringer you need to schedule more layers of glass.
I've handled the marine foam samples at our local boat store, its real neat stuff, light as a feather but I don't need it.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
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Messages
5,581
Re: avoiding hard spots - flexibility of tabbing and filleting

With stringers and bulkheads..they should be "floated" (gaps)

And they have to be kinda precise in there location ( unless you want to tab in a stringer and find out its too high/low ).

You should really use just a few strips of mat here and there along with wood wedges to get your stringers or bulks Right where they Need to be..then remove the wedges/forms and glass it up.

You have ONE chance ( well..multiple chances but why waste resin/glass ).

Its called dry fit..then pre-wet fit..then Glass.

You cant just cut and glass IMO..everything has to be on the Dime with stringers and bulks/decks..everything has to fit together like legos m8...be sure before you start kickin off a gal of resin....It will be quick..and you do it right..or wrong..

Multiple stages are required IMO.. like tack welding...look and see..

YD.

PS. this is Glasswork..not anything else..glasswork....do it right the first time or your grinding glass and more layups.
 
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