Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Kamahele

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Messages
36
Hi - my first post to this forum....
I have to store my fiberglass boat in the water during winter where it must survive occasional freezing conditions. I have little or no opportunity to check on its condition during the winter and worry about whether the bilge may be taking on water. I have installed a 120 watt solar panel that I hope will keep the two 110 amp-hour batteries topped up that power the bilge pump. I'm thinking about installing something like a Jabsco Par-Max 4 bilge pump since it is mounted above water and is self priming, rather than a submersible pump. Let me explain my concerns and ask a few questions.
The concern is whether the Jabsco pump can be mounted in a way that when it stops operating water automatically drains out of the pump and tubes so that it can survive freezing weather without damage. My idea is to mount it horizontally, with the inlet facing down and the outlet facing up. That way ?left over? water in the pump could drain down the inlet tube back to the bilge. The pump outlet would be slightly higher than the through-hull discharge fitting so the output tube could drain out. This might enable the draining of the pump to prevent damage to its internal parts due to expansion of freezing water. Some questions, if anyone knows or has an opinion:
Question 1: during operation, would the pump expel all of the water entering the pump or does some residual water remain?
Question 3: if residual water does remain after operation, does it all drain out completely, or would enough be left to freeze and cause expansion damage?
Question 2: Actually, does it really matter if residual water does remain in the pump since it uses a diaphragm design that might not be damaged by expanding frozen water?
Any help appreciated.
Thanks!
 

UncleWillie

Captain
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
3,995
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

"Diaphragm Design" ??? Most bilge pumps are impeller pumps mounted with the impeller at the bottom and the outlet pointing sideways.
Exactly what make/model of pump are you using?
What Make/Model/Year Boat are we talking about?? :confused:

The typical pump will leave 2-3 inches of water in the bilge when it shuts off. It is there just to reduce the amount of water to a manageable level not dry out the bilge. The pump will still have plenty of water surrounding it.

If the water around the boat does not freeze, the water in the boat will not either.
If it does freeze you need to get the boat out of the water for the winter or hull damage is possible.

Do yourself a favor....
At the top of this page, click on "My Profile"
Then click the little Yellow Pencil next to "Location"
Enter your general location. Nearest major City/State.
It will help in getting answers specific to your location.
Others members in your area will be able to advise what is common practice to the locale.

And Welcome to iboats! :welcome:
 

Grub54891

Admiral
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
6,170
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Where are you located? Freezing weather,unable to get the boat out? How do you service anything below the waterline?
Anyway,diaphram pumps do not self drain. As stated ^there what kind of pump? Pics please and a bit more info.
Grub
 

UncleWillie

Captain
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
3,995
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

OK, I read it again.

The Jabsco Par-Max 4 Pump is a 60 PSI, 4 gpm, Diaphragm pump usually used as a high pressure wash-down pump.
4gmp is only 240 gph. Very Marginal! 500gpm is recommended on boats under 20 ft. 1000 gpm is even better!
If you are going to be gone all winter, two pumps on separate batteries would be recommended.

A diaphragm pump will not drain either the intake of the outflow lines when off.
Submerged impeller pumps drain all hoses.
If the water in the bilge is expected to freeze, the pump will be the least of the problems.
The stringers and the transom may separate from the Hull!

More details Please!
 

hogg

Seaman
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Uncle Willie I appreciate your light shaded note about filling in the information. Good point!

I lived in AK and everything froze. Wood boats left in the water didn't seem to suffer like you'd think they would.
Those Bilge pumps need to be BIG!
I had a Cedar boat that seemed to 'grow' water inside. I had two Pumps on DC motors. Float switches. Two Batteries.
I had that boat about six winters with no problems from Freezing.

The best fix for wintering a boat in the water is a good Fan!
 

lakegeorge

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 19, 2002
Messages
660
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Do you have access to electricity? if so leave a light bulb on inside the bilge and the heat from it will keep everything warm.
 

Kamahele

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Messages
36
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

To answer some of your questions:

-Our boat is in France, overwintering in Buzet-sur-Baise on the Canal de Garonne. She's built in France and designed for cruising freshwater canals. She?s a Nicols 1160, built in 1992, 38' length, wide beam (12'), Low power (3 cylinder 42 hp diesel) and shallow draft (3').

-Her current engine is a refit and left little space underneath for a bilge pump. The submersible pump & float switch are currently located a bit high in the bilge, so I was thinking of putting in a suction type bilge pump that's located above the bilge water line with the intake tube down in the lowest part of the bilge. I would leave the existing pump/switch in place as a backup. This is what makes me ask whether a suction type pump such as the Jabsco model mentioned could suffer if the residual water in it freezes.

-There is a second submersible pump/float switch fore of the engine compartment in another bilge.

-Freezing weather occurs in the southern part of France, but it's not severe. There are not many opportunities to store boats out of the water along the canals in France, although we have thought of doing so. The boat has been kept in water all her life in all seasons. There are marinas on the canals that have hoists or other means for taking for the boat out if the bottom needs work.

-The marina where we are storing her did not have electric hook up available when we decided to store her there (procrastinated) but the solar panel should keep the battery up over winter (fair amount of sunshine in those parts).

-She does not normally take on water in the bilge when running but this is our first year owning her and have some worries about what might happen as she lays up over winter. Previous owner never mentioned any problems.

-Anyway, Uncle Willie advises that the Jabsco diaphragm pump would not drain so probably not the best if there are freezing conditions ? I would worry there would be damage from expansion of residual water when freezing - so probably a non-starter.

Thanks!
 

UncleWillie

Captain
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
3,995
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

I will assume by freezing conditions you mean that the air temperature gets below freezing on a handful of nights over the winter and not that the canals freeze over with a layer of ice that you could skate on.
Are we talking about a layer of snow that hangs around for more than a day?

A boat in water at ~40F (~5C) should be OK over night.
The water on the hull will negate the effects of the freezing air.

What do your canal mates do?
 

hogg

Seaman
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Ordinary incandescent Bulbs will burn out in the cold.
Use the "out door Spot lights" bulbs or the Heat bulbs they use for Baby Chicks.
Still...a fan is better than a Bulb.
 

UncleWillie

Captain
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
3,995
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Ordinary incandescent Bulbs will burn out in the cold.
Use the "out door Spot lights" bulbs or the Heat bulbs they use for Baby Chicks.
Still...a fan is better than a Bulb.

Unfortunatly those are not an option for the OP.

-The marina where we are storing her did not have electric hook up available when we decided to store her there (procrastinated) but the solar panel should keep the battery up over winter (fair amount of sunshine in those parts).
 

shrew

Lieutenant
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,309
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

If the bilge pump has a check valve, then I would disconnect the outlet hose from the pump and let the standing water drain from the discharge hose. If there is no check valve, then the water backflows from the through-hull fitting back through the pump and into the bilge anyway, so there is no water to worry about. I don't have check valves in my bilge pumps and don't winterize them at all.

I live in New England and my pumps are fine every spring when I test them during dpring commissioning.
 

hogg

Seaman
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Thanks for the corrections Willie.

I was in a Tech School, Miamis burg OH one terrible winter. The Temp plunged from 12 Degrees, down to 19 Below Zero.
It stayed below freezing for a week.
Dayton OH shut down three of it's Gas Generators because of a Fuel shortage. I'm still Shivering from that winter.

Back on the subject:
I wonder if there's some kind of Thermostatically controlled, 12V system to run a Bilge pump and/or keep the water in the Bilge circulating? All that backed up by the Solar panels.

There's an Economic Opportunity for some inventive individual.
 

82rude

Rear Admiral
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
4,082
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

jeez hogg -19 is considered down right warm in my neck of the woods .to me ohio is the southern hemisphere.mind you, I can see where somebody from your neck of the woods might mistakenly believe that's cold,lol.
 
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Thalasso

Commander
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
2,879
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Pour straight antifreeze in the bilge and any water will mix with it and help keep it from freezing.
 

H20Rat

Vice Admiral
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
5,204
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Ordinary incandescent Bulbs will burn out in the cold.
.

?

Never heard of that before, and I've lived my entire life in places that approach -40 on cold, clear nights. None of my outdoor lights are any type of special bulbs, and I have yet to replace any of them in my current house.
 

hogg

Seaman
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

I live in AK for 30+ Years. I saw lot's of Chilly weather.
One winter we raised Quail. The poor little things were always Huddled around under the 100 Watt Bulb. So I put in two bulbs.
Still One or both were burned out.
I put in Outdoor spots. Problem solved.

I was near Anchorage when we had a week of -20. I left my Diesel pickup running the whole week. Just locked the door....

My 22' and 27' Fiberglass boats had Bilge pumps. I brought them up to the house at the end of the season.
Pulled the Batteries out, into the house. Let Anti-Freeze take care of the boat.
I had the kind of Bilge pumps I could twist the Pump and pull it up. in the 12 years I owned those boats I only had one 'freeze' problem and that was the Riser. Somehow that one didn't drain. I had it welded.

I must have been a Handy Sap because I fixed a lot of other guy's boats in those years.
 

UncleWillie

Captain
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
3,995
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

Pour straight antifreeze in the bilge and any water will mix with it and help keep it from freezing.

The boat is in the water. The bilge pump would just pump it overboard.

Let's not over think this. :joyous:

The boat is on a canal in the South of France about 100 miles from Spain. He winters in Hawaii.
The daily highs are above freezing all winter. ALMANAC
It gets below freezing for a dozen nights a year. Warms up the next day. Think more like Georgia weather.
The canal does not freeze over. Any water in the bilge is not going to freeze.
A pair of conventional impeller Bilge pumps would be recommended.
 

limitout

Banned
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
543
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

seams to me the issue isn't water related but temperature so cover the boat to trap in the heat from the sun (radient heat) then add some form of 12v resistance heater on a thermostat for any extreme overnight temperature drops to "maintain" just above freezing temps in the short time its that cold for it to be needed if ever? wouldn't that be the best solution?
 
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smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: Bilge pumps & freezing weather

as stated above there IS no temp issue..... the water is not going to freeze... Keep the pumps in the bottom of the bilge and all will be fine..... heaters are not an option because the power is not there to run them
 
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