Can it be done? My dilema...

[dr1124]

I just inherited a boat from a deceased acquaintance of mine. It is a Seadoo 15' Speedster Jetboat. I researched on NADA Boats, and it listed the Seadoo coming in at ~1200lbs (doubt this includes trailer weight). So my estimate is 2000lbs for the [fueled] boat and trailer [class 1]. Everything else is stocked at the cabin, and no coolers or whatever else will be hauled. I have 2 cars and a motorcycle, but no truck. I am wondering if either of my cars might be able to tow this craft.

I have at my disposal:

-A stock 2005 Subaru WRX w/ [AWD-VTD] 4EAT transmission. Weight is ~3200lbs (including me). Tow rating (for the wagon, which comes with a hitch) is 2000lbs. This is not the prefered vehicle I was planning to use, as I might be selling it soon?.

-A heavily modified 1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 w/ reforged Getrag 5spd. Weight is 3600-4000lbs (including me). The manual doesn't state anything relating to towing, though I have found they make a class 1 hitch for this car that mounts to existing locations on the frame. This car has about 500HP @ 6k RPM & 350TQ @ 2,500RPM. Crusing speed (55mph) in top gear is ~2k. Stage 3 clutch is installed, large Brembo brakes equiped, and the car has front and rear LSD's. Additionally, the car has Electronically Controlled Suspension [ECS] which lets you set the car in a softer mode for touring, and a hard mode for race driving. The car's stock suspension was changed with a set of Eibach lowering springs [1"]. Summit Racing has the hitch for the VR4, and I can get it installed for relatively nothing (since I 'know people'). I am uploading some pictures of the car in question, so that you might make a better judgement on the subject.

I alone will be in the tow vehicle, and I weigh 130lbs; no other luggage will be loaded in the car or the boat. The locations for my boating are a maximum of 60 minutes away [~90% highway]. Ramps are concrete, and are..."textured" for additional traction. Can the VR4 handle this? I have seen people towing bigger things with cars I deem less capable (Ford Taurus's and Toyota Camry's). With the VR4's weight, weight distribution, and performance parts - I'm thinking it's possible if the sedans "can" do it. I am really in a pickle, seeing as the boat MUST be moved soon regardless (due to estate sale), and I do not have any other forseeable method of towing it.

Also, with the WRX's automatic - I know it "can" tow up to 2000lbs [with a trans cooler and appropriate hitch]. Even though this post is more focused on the VR4, opinions on the WRX could also be helpful (and appreciated). Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

 

[Jetwash]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

Rent a truck from uhaul or some other agency. Double check the ball size and the wire connection. Also check into the insurance for the truck and the boat. It sounds like you haven't towed in the past, just be aware that following distance, backing up and other conditions require more attention.

 

[444]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I've towed around 1000lbs with a 4cyl econo car no problem. We were going to haul a 1500lb boat/trailer package with an early 90's chrysler 3.0 V6 car but ended up selling that boat and car. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier picking up something like a used suv? I think you'd have more fun at the ramp in something like that than backing the rear end of your 3000gt into the water. To launch/retrieve my boat, my back tires have to be partially in the water. That would put the rear bumper of your 3000gt under water. Plus your receiver hitch would be awfully low to the ground.

I think you'd be happier with something like a used jeep cherokee. More capable and you would have room to throw all your crap in the back that you'd take to the lake and not have to worry about scratching up your nice 3000gt or WRX. It's more fun when at the lake to have something with a bit of room to haul along all your beach and boat supplies and not have to feel bad about just throwing all your stuff into.

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

Rent a truck from uhaul or some other agency. Double check the ball size and the wire connection. Also check into the insurance for the truck and the boat. It sounds like you haven't towed in the past, just be aware that following distance, backing up and other conditions require more attention.

I have towed in the past, but mostly with large farm equipment. I have towed/launched/retrieved an 18' boat with an Astro Van, but that was at a different dock. How much does renting a UHaul for a day run? That's probably more expensive than a cheap truck over time...

I think you'd be happier with something like a used jeep cherokee. More capable and you would have room to throw all your crap in the back that you'd take to the lake and not have to worry about scratching up your nice 3000gt or WRX. It's more fun when at the lake to have something with a bit of room to haul along all your beach and boat supplies and not have to feel bad about just throwing all your stuff into.

I'd rather not have to buy another vehicle, case in point me mentioning selling the WRX. I don't really have the space for another vehicle at present. I admit you have a good point about submersing my cars' rear ends into the lake. I would need a tongue extender, and that would change the whole dynamic. That, and the fact that the VR4 is low to the ground makes it seem impractical to consider using it. I wasn't thinking I would have to get that far down. The Astro I used in the above reference didn't even get close to the water. That 18' boat trailer was just large enough I guess that it kept the van dry. My only concern originally with using the VR4 was burning my clutch on retrieving the craft. This problem keeps getting more complicated...

 

[kahuna123]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I towed a 16 carlson with a 280z for years. You have more stopping power, more hp. more tire on the road with the mits than any Ford 150. Forget what the body looks like think whats really doing the work. If you have to put the rear end in the water to get a overgrown jetski off a trailer something is wrong. And I did pull a 21 ft with it once and that was a mistake. Not because of the HP and pulling ability but I did not have the stopping power. But at the time it was what I had and it worked not problem for years. And we looked good!!!

I pulled my 26ft Dusky that weighed almost 8000 pounds with a Chevy Blazer 350 275 hp. Is your Mits 4 times weaker?? Remember you don't have to hot rod around. Plus that your a manual so there is no need to worry about the trans shifting too soon or lugging in high gear.

I do agree with 444. Long term you would probably enjoy having tow vehicle. I traded my base model Stealth with 200k on it for a beater Chevy Truck and my everyday is an Scion XB. It gets me to the ramp, Home Depot and the dump and I washed it last year I think. Besides that most of the time my wet stuff is salt water. But if the question is it possible then yes.

 

[superbenk]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

The 3000gt might have better brakes & more HP than a F150, but what it lacks is weight. The F150 has more weight which translates into traction. It also has more wheelbase which makes handling the trailer easier & safer.

While I don't think you need a full-size pickup for this boat by any means, I don't think either of your cars are adequate or safe for towing that boat. If you're selling the we'd, why can't you replace it with the cheap used truck/suv as suggested above? That seems like the best option.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

Bet your trailer is under 500 pounds, would check it but my 10 ft utility trailer weight is 560 solid wood floor and steel rail.

 

[JB]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

There is no tow rating for the 3000GT. That means it is not recommended. That is a supercar, not a truck.

The WRX at least has a tow rating. It is the safer option. Stay out of the higher gears.

 

[Mike Zee]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

Set up the WRX, go get the boat. Take straight to a scale to get weighed. If you live in a flatter part of the country, you may be better off than in a hilly part. Hell if you are close to me I'd lend you my F150, but I'd have to use the 3000 GT

 

[guy74]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I would recommend against towing a boat with the VR4. It could probably pull it down the road fine and safely as long as you treat it gently, but use at the ramp would be almost impossible. Car gearing and a manual trans would make it almost impossible to pull the boat out. I tow my boat with my trans-am sometimes, but it has 3.42 gearing and an automatic, plus it weighs 3900lbs and I am only towing 2000lbs. I think you would be ok with the WRX as long as you take the proper precautions.

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

The 3000gt might have better brakes & more HP than a F150, but what it lacks is weight. The F150 has more weight which translates into traction. It also has more wheelbase which makes handling the trailer easier & safer.

While I don't think you need a full-size pickup for this boat by any means, I don't think either of your cars are adequate or safe for towing that boat. If you're selling the [wrx], why can't you replace it with the cheap used truck/suv as suggested above? That seems like the best option.

The only reason I don't want to get a truck (besides the expense) is that I have nowhere to keep it. I am not even sure what I will be doing with the boat. I live on a half acre lot in the suburbs. I have a 2 car garage which houses the 3000GT and my motorcycle. The WRX sits in my driveway. I was looking at storing the boat in a storage unit or someplace along those lines.

There is no tow rating for the 3000GT. That means it is not recommended. That is a supercar, not a truck.

The WRX at least has a tow rating. It is the safer option. Stay out of the higher gears.

I wouldn't call it a supercar. It's not a lamborghini (though the mileage is about the same). I understand what you're saying though. That's one vote for the WRX.

Set up the WRX, go get the boat. Take straight to a scale to get weighed. If you live in a flatter part of the country, you may be better off than in a hilly part.

Another vote for the WRX. Also, where I live is relatively flat, but it gets slight rolling hills (nothing major) as you get closer to the lake. No 3000GT for you!

I would recommend against towing a boat with the VR4. It could probably pull it down the road fine and safely as long as you treat it gently, but use at the ramp would be almost impossible. Car gearing and a manual trans would make it almost impossible to pull the boat out. I tow my boat with my trans-am sometimes, but it has 3.42 gearing and an automatic, plus it weighs 3900lbs and I am only towing 2000lbs. I think you would be ok with the WRX as long as you take the proper precautions.

My car and yours are comparable in weight, and likely in power. By looking at them, they are similar even in shape/size/dimension. How is your hitch setup attached to the frame [welded or bolt-on]? I think Trans Ams are unibody, as are my cars. An automatic makes pulling out of the drink easier, for sure - but (pardon my ignorance) how is your experience different than if I used the VR4? The first gear in the VR4 is rarely used, seeing as it "goes by" too fast on the street. You also suggest the WRX, which seems to be the more popular (and safe) candidate.

I didn't expect a 200HP sub-compact [2800lbs] to out perform a 500HP GT class sports cruiser [3800lbs]. If anything, I have been corrected from thinking that the VR4 would have been the better choice. I had originally thought about using the WRX - but the lower weight, smaller size, smaller brakes, and lack of power made me think the VR4 was the safer tow vehicle for those I share the road/marina with.

 

[guy74]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

My hitch is a custom made one, I built it, ties into the rear upper spring mounts, bumper mounts and exits though the rear bumper cover where the license plate goes by using a hinged license plate mount off an older car the had the gas filler behind the plate. The hitch is a welded in structure. The car also has tubular control arms and subframe connectors, but none of that is for towing The main worry I would have with the VR4 is that 1st gear is probably to high, and the clutch would take a beating. A manual trans isn't your friend at the ramp, especially some ramps. AWD and automatic, like the WRX, is a great attribute for any tow vehicle, especially one at a boat ramp!

My experience, I will not use a manual trans vehicle at the ramp, just unhandy, and I don't feel safe with just a parking brake holding it so I have to shut off the motor and leave it in gear, a real PITA.

I guess the point is, you can do whatever you want, and probably make it work fine.

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I towed a 16 carlson with a 280z for years. You have more stopping power, more hp. more tire on the road with the mits than any Ford 150. Forget what the body looks like think whats really doing the work. If you have to put the rear end in the water to get a overgrown jetski off a trailer something is wrong. And I did pull a 21 ft with it once and that was a mistake. Not because of the HP and pulling ability but I did not have the stopping power. But at the time it was what I had and it worked not problem for years. And we looked good!!!

I don't really care how it looks, only in how it performs! I'm used to being the "odd duck" when it comes to looks... Anyways, you towed a 16ft boat with a Datsun 280Z? I was also thinking about having to get close to the water with the car, as I have seen youtube videos of people getting intimate with the wetness. Hence why I need a tongue extender!

I would never have attempted to tow a 21' with a car of any kind, but my theory on this whole subject is that:

The Mitsubishi factory engineers designed this car to go ~150MPH tops, safely (source: the manual). They equipped the car with a heavy duty transmission and large brakes, which I further enhanced. The cars base weight [3800lbs] almost guaranteed that they needed massive stopping power. Combined all that with a stiff riding suspension (ECS in sport/race mode), AWD, and other heavy duty parts, I figured a trailer that is about half the weight of the tow vehicle shouldn't be a big problem save the retrieval (and the most abuse would be to the clutch, which has only 2500 miles on it). I am worried about ride height and clearance mainly. For some reason, I have it stuck in my mind that I will be backing down some kinda 45-degree angle slope to load this boat...though I doubt the ramps are that steep.

Is your Mits 4 times weaker?? Remember you don't have to hot rod around. Plus that your a manual so there is no need to worry about the trans shifting too soon or lugging in high gear.

I think if I did try this, I would make ample use of my powerband and not even use 5th. I have heard that there are adverse affects to running an engine in boost for long periods of time with a load. I was also told that the boat will "push" the car down the road when I'm not giving any gas (which would "cook my LSD's"). I have never seen this in practice. I do not usually engine-brake my car though, so if I were towing I would have to do a better job of rev-matching my downshifts.

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

and I don't feel safe with just a parking brake holding it so I have to shut off the motor and leave it in gear, a real PITA.

That was/is one of my main concerns. I need to adjust my parking brake anyways. I tested it out awhile back and it wasn't holding on a relatively steep incline. So I would need to shut it off and lock it out in 1st. It is most definitely a PITA. I hate automatic transmissions, but I have to admit that the multiplcation of torque is handy, as is that thing you call "P" (darn you torque converter....).

1st gear is probably too high, and the clutch would take a beating

This is my original concern. I thought I could get around this by using 2nd since my second gear is really long (in comparison to 1st). Each gear above 1st gets progressively longer, I had my ratios tweaked to put me at ~1500RPM at every *legal* speed from 2nd gear on up [2nd=25, 3rd=35, 4th=45, 5th=55] to save gas and engine wear. One thing I hate about the WRX is that in OD on the highway at ~60MPH, I'm waddling around at ~2600RPM. Average for a 4-banger I know, but as my saying goes: "no replacement for displacement [now with additional boost!]". I turbocharge everything I get my hands on; I'm a firm believer in forced induction.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

So... care to take a guess what my vote is?

I'm around 3000 miles of towing so far this year... My boat is also about 450 pounds heavier than yours. The WRX is a much better tow vehicle. I do have a 5 speed in mine (still on original clutch at 110k miles!), so my only suggestion would be a trans cooler if the 4eat didn't get one. (I'm thinking they did though, memory is a little fuzzy on that)

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I'm around 3000 miles of towing so far this year... My boat is [insane]. The WRX is a much better tow vehicle. I do have a 5 speed in mine (still on original clutch at 110k miles!), so my only suggestion would be a trans cooler if the 4eat didn't get one. (I'm thinking they did though, memory is a little fuzzy on that)

I don't think they came with trans coolers. If they did, it would only be the wagons - only those could have come with the towing package (if there was such an option). Either way, Uhaul or Summit can take care of that need easily enough. I am surprised that your WRX can negotiate that large boat around. I'm thinking total weight of ~2500lbs?. Seriously, that's both awesome and yet scary at the same time...

In reference to the thread topic though, please do tell about your experiences with loading and pulling your boat out of the drink with your WRX / 5spd. Is your car stock or is it souped up? Now that I have seen this, my interest has been peaked. Difference though is that the 4EAT leeches ~30 horsepower from the car. So you might be 210 at the wheels where I am sitting roughly 190. Now you're making me think I should hold onto my WRX for awhile longer!

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

I'm thinking total weight of ~2500lbs?.

In reference to the thread topic though, please do tell about your experiences with loading and pulling your boat out of the drink with your car [and with a 5spd]. Is your car stock or is it souped up? Now that I have seen this, my interest has been peaked. Maybe I should hold onto my WRX for awhile longer!

Its a sugar sand tango 4+2, dry weight of 1455#. So with trailer, battery, 28 gallons of fuel, 5 gallons of oil, and any misc items, it is 2000 +/- a little. I don't think i'm up to 2500 though.

As far as mods, all 3 of the cats disappeared, not sure what happened to them. 3 inch exhaust all the way through, still running the stock td04 turbo but ported/polished, and ceramic coated. I'm also running larger injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump, mainly so I can run e85. (incredible power and even better torque running that stuff!) I'm currently tuned for about 18 psi of boost, I'll up that a little once the weather cools off some.

Loading is all in technique (absolute minimum rpm's), with a 4eat it would be dead simple and you wouldn't have any lack of traction. The only caveat I'll add is that I do avoid a couple really steep ramps. No need to burn up the clutch, it isn't fun to change! The subaru 4eat is an old design, but its very well built and bulletproof. Guys are running easily over double stock HP in race conditions on that trans. I'd still add a cooler to it though.

As far as how it handles going down the road, as you mentioned earlier, you don't want to extended times at high boost. I've even gone so far as make myself a towing map, which limits it to wastegate pressure (7psi) The car itself has no problems whatsoever with the added load, and stopping is still excellent. (disclaimer, I have a full size truck also, so its not like I'm just saying it tows it that well from lack of experience/options)

 

[dr1124]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

mainly so I can run e85. (incredible power and even better torque running that stuff!)

I need to read up on this. I have two cars that might eventually be getting this treatment. Sad that there isn't any E85 stations anywhere around me.

As far as ramps, like I said I'm on the stock clutch yet with over 100k miles, and I do occasionally drive fairly hard. Loading is all in technique, with a 4eat it would be dead simple and you wouldn't have any lack of traction. The only caveat I'll add is that I do avoid a couple really steep ramps. No need to burn up the clutch, it isn't fun to change!

When I was asking about the 5spd part, as you likely guessed, I was trying to assess how difficult it would be on the VR4. As I thought, there are some ramps that just aren't worth bothering with. The 4EAT makes it a semi-brainless endeavor takin' care of business. Darn slushboxes... However, in case you didn't catch my previous posts' edits - your WRX and mine are very much different in power output. My WRX actuallly just went into the shop for transmission work - my linkage must've rusted and shattered off when I was in the middle of traffic. I was stuck in (D) & it wouldn't go into neutral or park! Did I ever mention that I hate automatics 85% of the time?

As far as how it handles going down the road, as you mentioned earlier, you don't want to extended times at high boost. I've even gone so far as make myself a towing map, which limits it to wastegate pressure (7psi) The car itself has no problems whatsoever with the added load, and stopping is still excellent. (disclaimer, I have a full size truck also, so its not like I'm just saying it tows it that well from lack of experience/options)

Hrmmm, controlling the boost on either of my cars is pretty much impossible. My VR4 runs 15-18psi, and the WRX is stock (~7psi?). I believe I have an HKS manual boost controller on the VR4. If the WRX can handle your boat, I don't see why either of my cars can't handle the little SeaDoo. If your WRX can manage even with an extra ~400lbs, maybe I might even take a passenger along with me for some...maritime adventuring.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

However, in case you didn't catch my previous posts' edits - your WRX and mine are very much different in power output. My WRX actuallly just went into the shop for transmission work - my linkage must've rusted and shattered off when I was in the middle of traffic. I was stuck in (D) & it wouldn't go into neutral or park! Did I ever mention that I hate automatics 85% of the time?

Yep, caught it, the forgot to respond to it!

Your wrx will handle extended pulling down the highway better than the vr, at least if you are concerned about longevity. Pulling is vastly different than a dyno session, and the more an engine has been hot rodded, the less likely it is to stand up to putting out lots of power for an extended time. A stock wrx engine is fairly stout, and there isn't much that can go wrong, even if you do are running a high load level for an extended period. Just as an example, I've got the horsepower gauge set up on my scangauge in the wrx. Going down the highway with the boat behind I see around 100 hp. Going up a hill will put it around 150 hp-200 hp max.

but... one other thing came to mind. What type of clutch do you have in the vr? A light weight 4 puck is going to be a huge pain to pull from a steep ramp, and you probably will burn it quite badly. The softer the engagement and heavier the flywheel, the better.

 

[cribber]

Re: Can it be done? My dilema...

There is no tow rating for the 3000GT. That means it is not recommended. That is a supercar, not a truck.

The WRX at least has a tow rating. It is the safer option. Stay out of the higher gears.

What JB said... and consider upgrading your tow vehicle because you'll likely get two-foot-itis.