Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

craze1cars

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1992 Mercruiser 3.0L 115 hp, 2bbl Mercarb model 9562-2. First carb rebuild since new.

Bought a Sierra rebuild kit here on Iboats, and all is going well. Gutted and cleaned, just getting to reassembling the float and needle valve and I'm in a quandry. Here's 2 specific questions that I feel need some build-up to accurately describe:

1. Float level adjustment...instructions in the kit say to measure from the "toe" of the float to the gasket. Well the toe itself is about 10 to 12 mm thick (depending on how you measure from rounded corners.) There are also two dots on this toe spaced 8 mm apart. I don't know where to measure the float from. I presume one of those dots is my measuring point? If yes, which? The dot closest to the gasket, or farthest from the gasket?

2. Needle choice. My kit came with 2 types of needle/seat assemblies, one uses a solid bar in the needle, the other uses a spring and narrower bar in the needle. Instructions say either can be utilized for my 9562 carb. Originally mine had the solid needle....but fine print in the instructions says "on 4 cyl engines w/flood or rough idle, if all componants and specs are OK, may be necessary to change to the spring loaded needle and seat." So...is the spring loaded needle indeed a better option? Should I use it instead of reinstalling the OEM solid needle? I do indeed experience some occasional minor flooding while engine is warm, and idle is indeed a bit rougher than I like, but it isn't a huge problem.

To further complicate things, it says I should have 10 mm float level with solid needle, 14 mm with spring needle. I tried both just for giggles...the solid needle gives a MUCH larger float reading than the spring...which is the opposite of what I would expect based on the above specs. So that confused me even more on how to measure the float level.

Before anyone asks, yes I have very carefully set base timing by disconnecting advance, checked for proper operation of advance, new cap/rotor, properly gapped new plugs, new wires, set idle mixture and speed, compression tested 140 to 145 on all cylinders, etc. Did all that stuff at the beginning of last year and it all helped, but didn't fully cure all my occasional minor flood/bog/stumble at idle ills. That's why I'm going through the carb now...plus the simple fact that it's over 16 years old and never been cleaned.

Any guidance is greatly appreciated. And any other rookie/unwritten tips from those of you with enough experience to know the quirks of these motors and how to tune these carbs, my ears are open...this is my first boat carb rebuild, though I've done many other varied vehicles over the years.

If this means anything, it has 145 jets installed.

Thanks as always!
 
D

DJ

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

I don't have the answers to your specific questions but that was an excellent post. Very descriptive.
 

ron7000

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

2002 3.0L here,

2) i vaguely remember reading the difference between the spring loaded vs non spring loaded needle valve and if you had to choose then go with the spring loaded. It'll help with pulsation and float bounce if there's a lot of vibration, or something like that. The biggest thing is that the needle is clean and the viton (black) tip isn't knicked so when the float raises the needle shuts off fuel flow completely. When it doesn't is when you get flooding.

1) think less about what type needle valve your using and what the float measurement should be, and this principle will apply to any carb. The purpose here is only to get the fuel level in the bowl at the correct level. The easiest way of course is to tell somebody measure from here to there and the distance should be x, but this many times will not work because you can bend other parts of the float mechanism which then throw this measurement off. Then there's the style, and size, of the needle valve which has a huge impact on that measurement which you already found it. And, different material floats will float higher or lower and that can have an effect. So in the end it can be a trial and error procedure setting float level by disassembling and reassembling the bowl. On the mercarb it's easy because you can just pull the top cover off the bowl and see where the fuel level is. So what you do is reinstall your carb on the motor with the bowl cover (with float mechanism) not installed. Then lightly install the bowl cover, hook up fuel line, crank motor but disable ignition so you just fill the fuel bowl of the carb and motor doesn't start. Then pull bowl cover and see where fuel level is. If you look close at the bowl prior, there should be a stain line where the fuel level has always been. Shoot for that level adjusting the float. The minimum requirement for fuel level in the bowl is the main jets must always be covered, then the higher the fuel level the richer the mixture will be. If anything, get it a little higher that will almost always help especially if the motor ever had a stumble on acceleration.

I know their are various models of mercarb and the 3L motor itself over the years, but if you have 1.45mm jets you might consider going up a couple sizes, it can help with acceleration. my 2002 jets were 1.55mm oem and I run 1.65mm with very good results. Jets are only $2.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Thank you...I appreciate the time and thoughts. Mostly makes sense with a few things I'm still unclear on.

First, does anyone else here have a certain/strong opinion on the spring needle choice?

Second, I do undertand the purpose of the float is simply maintaining correct fuel level in the bowl...my only concern with using the bowl stain line for this is that I have no way of knowing if that stain was at the correct level in the first place. I did get a occasional stumble on hard accelleration, like when I push the throttle wide open from idle speed to get a skiier out of the water. So if I understand you correctly...you're saying that the stumble is an indicator that I need a higher fuel level in the bowl to enrichen the mixture a bit to correct that? That seems contrary to the fact that it sometimes would flood and run on slightly after a hot shut-down and I'd have to crank it with open throttle to get it to restart. I have the same thought process regarding installing larger jets which would let in more fuel...wouldn't that aggravate a flooding condition? It seems it was getting too much fuel during those shut downs and restarts...of course that likely has nothing to do with the hard accelleration stumble, likely a different aspect of the carb (maybe rich idle mixture or leaking needle?) rather than the float level under those conditions. Bigger jets do intrigue me however...getting a couple extra ponies out of this anemic motor would be nice.

Just trying to understand a little better, as well as decide how I should set this up for best all around operation. Thank you again, it was extremely helpful...and thanks in advance to anyone else who has tips or thoughts...

MAN I wish I had a tank at home I could back this thing into and do all sorts of fine tuning and experiment with the carb in the water and under full load. Such a PITA for me to get it to a lake and do this type of tuning there....and I've found tuning it to run well on muffs just doesn't duplicate water runs.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Craze,

Your questions are good ones.

First off, "hammering" the throttle will sometimes cause a "stumble" on any engine that is sitting in a hot environment, PLUS, it's hard on the person on the other end of the rope. Easing into the throttle is better for both. "Hit it" is a term, NOT a method of driving.

I understand your questions regarding using the old float level. How long have you had the boat? Has it always been that way?

You're going to have to experiment and see what works for you.

If you had flooding issues before, it could have been caused by dirt/debris, etc. If it were me, I'd use the Viton tipped needle and adjust the level per instructions.

I would then play with the float level accordingly. You may get it dead on the first time, let's hope.

I do not know where you are but fuel quality is a major factor in the symptoms you describe. Here in AZ, we get garbage.

Viton is very resistant to fuel quality issues, that's why I would go that route.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Thanks tommays....the right book makes ALL the difference. The kit instructions are quite incomplete in comparison. That answered several of my questions.

Book indicates that an accelleration bog is most likely an accellerator pump adjustment issue, which makes a ton of sense to me. So I'll make sure to get that to proper spec and keep it in mind when I have a chance to final tune. I'm probably overthinking the float level thing but the book helps clear all that up for me to get it to a good preliminary level according to their specs.

I'll probably go ahead and try the spring loaded needle unelss someone here thinks that's a bad idea.

Also curious on a second opinion about going up a jet size or two, strictly in the interest of getting a couple more ponies.

Thanks!
 

craze1cars

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

DWJ, thanks for your thoughts. I should clarify. I don't really have a needle choice...it only came with one, and it is Viton tipped. My choice is wheter I should spring load that needle, or load it with the solid bar. This is referenced in the Merc book tommays posted as well. They just say if one gives you problems, try the other. I'm curious about people's real world experiences with them...

I've had the boat only a few years, bought from original owner who really never had any work done to it. It had issues with water in the fuel, etc when he owned it due to some improper maintenance. I've replaced most wear items with new parts and have used it regularly with it's minor hiccups for a couple seasons now. Carb is last on my list and decided to do it while it's laid up for the winter (Indiana). Had some gunk and corrosion sitting in the bottom of the bowl. I too am hoping the simple act of cleaning it will cure many of my minor ills (which are indeed minor) in and of itself.
 

ron7000

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

craze1cars said:
a) So if I understand you correctly...you're saying that the stumble is an indicator that I need a higher fuel level in the bowl to enrichen the mixture a bit to correct that?

b) That seems contrary to the fact that it sometimes would flood and run on slightly after a hot shut-down and I'd have to crank it with open throttle to get it to restart.

c) I have the same thought process regarding installing larger jets which would let in more fuel...wouldn't that aggravate a flooding condition? It seems it was getting too much fuel during those shut downs and restarts...of course that likely has nothing to do with the hard accelleration stumble, likely a different aspect of the carb (maybe rich idle mixture or leaking needle?) rather than the float level under those conditions. Bigger jets do intrigue me however...getting a couple extra ponies out of this anemic motor would be nice.

a) correct, what happens is the fuel mixture leans out in the transition circuit (circuit between idle and main circuits) when you accelerate and the engine stumbles until the main jets and main metering circuit of the carb comes online and supplies the fuel. Its a very common problem, and the way to fix it is to raise the fuel level and the bowl and make sure the idle mixture isn't too lean.

b) on a hot shutdown what can happen is engine heat can boil the fuel in the carb and that can dribble out after shutdown and seem to flood the motor. But usually on the 3.0L, again very common, is the tendancy for the engine to run on after shutdown. It's a combo of engine timing, heat, fuel octane, spark plugs, and carb tuning. Make sure your engine timing isn't over advanced, your spark plugs are the correct heat range (not too hot) and fuel is quality 87 octane. With everything correct however it'll still runon if you quickly idle down from cruise and shut off within say 5 seconds. You just have to let it idle for at least 20-30 seconds when its hot.

c) the main jets have nothing to do with fuel mixture at idle, the idle mixture is controlled by the idle circuit and idle mixture screw. you could remove the jets and have a big hole there, the motor will still start and idle. More power = always good, and with the 4cyl you always need more. The larger jets + higher fuel level will provide you the power you should be getting under acceleration. After running larger jets for a while at cruise, shutdown rather quickly and check your spark plugs. If they're still clean then the jets aren't making the A/F too rich. If they're black and sooty (dry fouled) then that can be an indication it's too rich provided you're spark plug heat range is correct.

last fyi on float level, what I found out on tuning mine because I slalom ski and needed all the pull I could get for deepwater starts, was finding what optimum float setting was. All you do is keep adjusting the fuel level higher little by little till when you start the motor raw fuel drips out the booster, or the motor won't start because it's flooding and you smell gas. Then you know it's too high, lower it a little till it starts and it'll idle smooth. If under all operating conditions raw fuel does not drip out the boosters and your spark plugs don't foul, it's not too rich.
I posted some links in other thread for carb books, it was "165 carb question something". The books are well worth the $11 they cost if you want to understand how to repair and tune vs following some instruction booklet.
 
D

DJ

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

craze,

If you have had flooding issues, go with the spring. That will only help with keeping fuel out of the bowl under heat conditions.

Heed the advice on "hammering" the throttle. I'm a good ski/tube puller as told by the people that ride behind me. Skiing/tubing is supposed to be fun, not work.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Ron, you've described my symptoms to absolute perfection. Mild run-on if shut down too quick, etc...right down to the fact that my 3.0's primary duty is to pull my butt out of deep water slalom starts all summer. One of these years I'll pony up for a bigger boat, but for now this wheezer does the trick!

Thanks for the further explanation...DWJ too! I'm prettty sure I know about where to go from here to get it back together. I'll know more next spring and will take some time to mess with final tuning then...
 
D

DJ

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

this wheezer does the trick!

"Wheezer". That's one of the best descriptions I've ever heard regarding a 2.5 or 3.0L.

Ancient tech. that still works. Maybe best left to forklifts, from now on.8)
 

John_S

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

I had a flooding when idling problem on my 5.7L 2brl merc carb, end of this last season. It was bad enough that I couldn't drive the boat to the ramp. I had to fix the carb even though it was going to be replaced w/4brl this winter. :'(

Mine had the spring needle, like yours. I also found the descrepency with the height using the Sierra kit. The spring should hold up the float further, not lower. I would think the spring would be better at sealing the needle and preventing the flooding, but found the service manual made it more confusing. Well, if you have one try the other! :^

FWIW, I went with the solid. I believe I compared the old needle/spring length to the new and found them different. So suspected just a kit problem. Wasn't going to try to send kit back, etc. I had to get the boat running before the cold weather set in. I didn't have any flooding issues in my drive to the ramp. The boat ran for about a half hour for warm-up and enough to convince me I wasn't going to die on the lake. I had about three miles of idling to get to the ramp and another mile of open water, and had no problems.

BTW, I don't believe the needle type was causing my issue. I believe it was the old seat was partially gummed up. When I ordered the kit I also got a new alcohol resistant float. It wasn't worth tearing the carb down and testing, prior to ordering.
 

ron7000

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

you also mentioned some water in the fuel and corrosion in the bowl. That is a dead giveaway you need to pull the carb and clean it out. All carbs are sensitive but I would say the mercarb is very sensitive, to any sediment. It will restrict fuel in the idle and transition circuits and cause problems. The water in the fuel will separate out in the bowl and cause rust spots and lead to sediment. I found this out firsthand last two years- water spots in the fuel bowl at the start of the season and had to clean the carb because it wouldn't get over 1500 rpm. That's with stabil in the gas and a water separating fuel filter on the motor. From now on I pull my carb for the winter, drain it and store it in my basement. it's easier pulling it and reinstalling it than having to do that plus clean it out.
That bowl gasket that comes with the rebuild kit, at least on mine, is only available in a kit which is > $20. So before using that new gasket clean both mating surfaces spotless and use white lithium grease or light coating of neversieze on the surfaces so the gasket doesn't stick. It'll make it reusable enough so you can remove/install the bowl many times to do tuning. and you don't need to crank the screws down when installing the bowl cover, do real easy so the gasket doesn't stick.
 
D

DJ

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

I believe the crud/water situation has been rectified, by the poster. Yet, a water/fuel seperator is a great idea.

I've used Sea Foam (NAPA) for years. It has solved many issues for me: fuel storage, decarb., dissolving rust, etc.

Boy am I glad we don 't have to mess with carb's on cars/trucks anymore. What a nightmare.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Well I just thought I'd update everyone on my results. I got it very carefully reassembled to the exact Mercury specs as written in the Merc manual posted by Tommays. I chose the spring loaded needle and left the stock 145 jets in it figuring they can be changed anytime relatively easily. And thanks to a fluke 65 degree weekend day last week, I got an opportunity to take it out for an on-the-lake shake-down cruise and final tuning.

As long as I was out there I brought my timing light along, double-checked my base timing was correctly at 1 degree BTDC, then confirmed advance was functioning properly, then I got idle speed and idle mix perfect while a friend steered it safely around.

Let me tell you this sucker is absolutely FIXED. It fired right up when cold with a pump or two and smoothed out quickly. It starts quickly and beautifully with just a touch of the key when the engine is fully warm, without needing to give it a little throttle like I used to. It idles perfect at about 675 rpm, when I pound the throttle wide open from a dead stop it takes off instantly with ZERO bog or hesitation, not even a hint of run-on when I shut it down...even if I do it quickly after a fast run, and my top speed gained about 1 or 2 mph. Dare I say it almost feels like it's fuel injected now? Tall order for this old-school 3.0, but I couldn't ask for anything better and I have restored faith in carburators now. They actually CAN be tuned to work extremely well! I didn't have to make any float adjustments or accelerator pump adjustments or anything...just left it exactly as assembled based on the recommended Merc measurements.

So it is rolling along just like a brand new boat and for the first time ever I have NO runnability complaints. It hopefully will run well on the more typical 90 degree humid day also, but I'll have to wait until next summer to confirm. But I ran stablizer through, drained the block again, and put it away for winter, and for now I ain't TOUCHING this fuel system at ALL. It is 2,000% improved and i am VERY pleased with the results.

Thank you to all who helped advise me through my first boat carb rebuild. It's just what the doctor ordered...
 

bjcsc

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Re: Carb rebuild assistance please...3.0L Mercruiser

Hey, this thread is as good as it gets.

- Very detailed intial post regarding a problem
- Detailed suggestions as a result
- Problem fixed.

That's what this site is all about...

Good show, craze1cars...
 
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