Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

[Reener]

We have a Larson 160 All American 15 1/2' with a 94 Mercury Force 90 hp Motor. The following is what we have had to do to the Motor so far with no good results:

Compression Test
Small bit of wiring work = $316.00

Diagnostic for Leaking Top Carb (didn't leak for them so they didn't do anything) = $141.75

R&R Top Carb, Dismantle, Clean and Install New Parts
Carb Kit, Tank Test, Shop Supplies $374.79

So...we took the boat out to give it a try and do a bit of fishing on Saturday. We put the boat in the water and it was a bugger to start which was the first sign that the new carb did absolutely nothing to help us other than save us the gas that had been leaking.

We let her warm up once she started and gradually put the throttle down and expected that we would be travelling at a good pace...WRONG...with the throttle down all the way we were only travelling at half the speed we should. However, as we made our way up the lake it gradually increased speed to what we think is the proper speed at full throttle but we can't be sure because the speedometer that was working before is suddenly not working! grrr We had travelled about a mile up the lake and stopped to do some fishing and when we looked around we realized we were going to get caught in a nasty electrical storm so we took our rods down with the intention of booting it back to shore...yeah right !!! We had to try to start the boat over and over and then when it started it would cut out when we tried to increase the throttle. This was not acceptable as we were in the worst possible place during an electrical storm and we were lucky that after several attempts the motor decided to kick in and we made it to the boat launch and little shaky but not smoking! hehe

We are now at the point where we can't afford to put the boat into a shop again...we are going on vacation next week and can't even take our new boat with us because we can't depend on the motor! Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we might try ourselves? Could it be that the choke is sticking? There is new gas in the boat and nothing has changed since we added the new gas.

Apparently this motor was recalled shortly after the original owner purchased it but we were told that he had all the necessary work done and apparently it ran fine for him and the second owner. 3rd time unlucky??? I have searched and searched and can find nothing on this motor being recalled or what it was recalled for...any idea where I could get this info??

I would appreciate any information you can supply that might help us get the boat out with us on vacation...it's pretty disappointing when you buy it and wait all year to use it and then it doesn't work for what you want to use it for...I would be soooo grateful for any help offered!

Reener

Tank Test

 

[lowkee]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Man, that sounds like one horrid day out..

It may be buried somewhere in your post, but I'm not quite sure you gave enough info to help diagnose the issue. Can you describe the symptoms it has while cold? Are they different when it warms up?

Does it sound flooded? Does it idle rough once started? You mention it has a brand new carb, which normally would rule out carb issues, but are the problems the exact same with the new carb, or different now? What was the result of the compression test (need psi per cylinder)?

This is the info which can let us help you.

Off hand, from the story you told, it sounds as though it may be flooding (still?), then again, it may be misfiring or the timing may be off.. it's tough to say without more info.

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Hey Lowkee...yeah it wasn't much fun I'll tell ya! Nice light show but awfully loud and close and it turned out that once it moved south it turned into a tornado near Red Deer Alberta! Glad we missed that one!

Anyway, the compression was 115 psi per cylinder. I don't think it's the timing as it sounds good when it runs good at full throttle.

Is there any way the electric choke can stick half closed because when we start it up we can run it at 5mph but it sounds like it is flooding and usually on the throttle when you hit that point of cutting out and you pull it back into neutral it idles smoothly and won't cut out. The problem we are having is the same as before the new carb was installed. Is there an adjustment for the electric choke or is it all electrical?

Is there a possibility that it could be a 'weak' fuel pump?

I find this is all incredibly frustrating because it seems to me that when you put a boat motor into a shop that specializes in them they would suggest what the problem might be wouldn't they? All this shop has done is looked at what we have suggested might be the problem and suggested nothing themselves!

 

[steam_mill]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

So, let's assume the shop did the right job on your motor and it ran fine at the shop.

Maybe a fuel delivery problem?

I had my 2003 90 hp run in a very similar fashion. Was trying to figure out what was wrong.

Boat stalled 500 feet from my dock. Killed the battery starting it. Dove in the water to swim back and get my other boat...

Tower her in. No idea what is wrong. Figure blocked fuel filter. Run to the dealer, new plugs, new fuel filter. Grabbed a remote tank, switched the fuel lines.

NO FUEL IN THE LINE!!!!!

Primer bulb was blocked!!!!!!

Try a primer bulb - less than $10.

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Wellll...ours will start...but it stalls out when we try to increase the speed and when we cut back to neutral it idles fine and when we squeeze the primer bulb we can hear the gas going to all three carbs. I doubt that is our problem but thank you for your input as it is much appreciated!

 

[timdan94]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

did you try replacing the fuel pump its a cheap and easy part that does go bad after a few years. you can get them at napa and here at iboats.


http://www.iboats.com/mall/partfind...gd_poid=112445&gd_row=34&**********=206474917

 

[sschefer]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Reener - Some well known facts about used outboard motors.

1. They always ran great for the prior owner.
2. They always run great at the repair shop.
3. They rarely run great when you need them to.
4. You'll spend a lot of money fixing them.
5. On the last outing of the season the motor will run great.
6. On the first outing of the next new season the cycle will repeat.

You probably don't have enough money to have the engine repaired properly or you would have done so.

In the final analysis, and please try to understand, this is not a ping on you directly, but you bought a boat and you can't afford it. Most of us do this so don't be offended. Just save your money and get your motor fixed right so you don't get yourself killed.

My brother once told me, "maybe it will run right when it's in the water". I responded with "Maybe it'll run right for the mechanic when it's in the water, let him swim if he doesn't fix it right"

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Well, I would like to hear from lowkee as well and get his opinion. It's not that we can't afford it, it's that we paid good money for the boat and motor with the hope that we would get what we paid for and what we were told was a unit that runs well.

As I said before, I would like for at least one mechanic to tell me what it might be rather than having us take stabs in the dark to no positive end. I do agree with your quote about having the mechanic swim if he doesn't fix it right!

 

[timdan94]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Wellll...ours will start...but it stalls out when we try to increase the speed and when we cut back to neutral it idles fine and when we squeeze the primer bulb we can hear the gas going to all three carbs. I doubt that is our problem but thank you for your input as it is much appreciated!

seeing that when you pump the primer you hear the gas going to the carbs it is a fuel delivery issue. Its going to be anywhere from the carbs to the fuel pickup in the tank. Is the tank portable or is it a permanent inboard tank. Is the vet open on the tank if its portable or is the vent on the inboard tank plugged.

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

It is an inboard tank and when we fill up the tank at a gas station and if we overfill the gas comes out of the vent hole on the side of the boat...

Do you think it could be the electric choke? Do you know how they work?

 

[lowkee]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

You can always disconnect the wire going to the choke, so it never activates. If it is anything like the choke on my Merc 140 I/O there are 2 screws which, when loosened, will allow you to rotate the choke assembly. I think left means less choke when active. You can turn it right and see the choke butterfly begin to twist. The prime spot is just before it begins to turn the butterfly, so when you activate it, it is fully enabled.

Also, next time you have trouble with starting it, take the plugs out and spin it over. If gas comes out, you know it is flooding, if not, maybe not enough fuel. If not enough fuel, squirt some fuel into the carb while cranking and see if it sputters at all (whether actually starting or not). Then you will know if fuel is the issue. If neither test succeeds, you know you have an electrical issue.

I know this all seems tedious, but that is what troubleshooting is all about, removing the working parts from the equation to find the remaining (broken) part.

 

[timdan94]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

It actually sounds like the boat is starving for gas, hence when you pump the bulb the carbs fill back up. Before doing anything to it try this. Have someone drive the boat and have another person back by the primer. When the boat struggles or starts to stall prime the bulb. If that fixes it you know it is a fuel delivery issue. You can check to see if the choke is opening and closing correctly by looking at the position of them. when you turn the choke on the butterfly valve will close reducing the airflow into the motor causing more fuel to be sucked into the engine. when you release the choke the butterfly valve will return to the open position allowing more air to flow reducing the amount of fuel being sucked into the engine. so when the choke is not activated it shoul be laying flat. so that it doesn't restrict any airflow to the engine.

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

OK!!! We tried the pumping of the bulb on Saturday while one was driving and another was pumping but it didn't change anything...BUT... we will try checking to see if the choke is opening and closing for sure! Actually we were leaning a lot towards this being a choke problem but it's hard to check this when you are on the lake obviously because you end up losing screws and parts and what not...however, we will give this a try this week and let you know what happens.

I am still open to suggestions though in case this isn't what it is anything else we can try would be much appreciated!

Thanks fellas for all your help and I will let you know what happens later on this week!

Thanks again!
Rena

 

[Crater]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

When you replaced the carb were they re-sync'd and lync'd correctly? A shop should have done this correctly but maybe eveything ie: timing and carbs are not sync'd like at wot the timing advances making it run correctly but between idle at wot it falls on it's face until it get the a rpm that it will burn the excess fuel.
just my pennies worth I got problems with my 94' merc 90 also.

BTY @ Cold starts --choke for short bit --floods very easily--warm start/no choke at all or I'm gonna flood it

 

[wajajaja02]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

the shop you went to was it land lock, or at a marina, It sounds like if you don't find the answer here, you need a new shop, I would find one on the water that can run the boat on the water. under it load. that 1st shop knew how to lighten your wallet better than fix boats did u buy the boat there?

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Crater...thanks for the advice...I will ask them about that tomorrow for sure...sorry to hear you are having problems too!

wajajaja02...honey...I live in Alberta...in the middle of the prairies...where we have to drive an hour just to get to a lake so shops at a marina here are non-existent. Apparently they have tanks they put the motor in but I personally have never even seen one! Makes ya wonder why the shop is always behind closed doors doesn't it??? hehe We bought the boat in a private sale and it had nothin' to do with the either shop we have been at...at least as far as I know... he hehe

Rena

 

[wajajaja02]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

I had a lot of disappointing shop work until I hooked up with my friends son who is a great mechanic who takes care of my cars and boats. and we take them to the lake to make sure they work perfectly, and he make the adjustments so they do. my force 125 and merc i/o half new lives and so do my autos..

 

[Reener]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Yeah...we have friends that can do just about everything including a heavy duty mechanic, a welder, a picker operator, a backhoe driver and a crane operator but durn it...none of them know how to fix a small engine!!! Guess we need to make some more friends eh? ha ha

 

[sschefer]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Reener, sorry if you took my last post personally, it was meant to try and humour you through a difficult time. In otherwords, I've been in the same boat.

Can you give me the serial number off your engine, I want to look up something up for you.

As for your choke, it's really not a choke, it is just a solenoid that allows fuel to flow directly into the reed blocks. That pressure comes from squeezing the bulb. There should be a manual test button on top of it. I put a clear plastic fuel line on mine so I could see if it was working, you can remove the top hose and then push the button. You should get a short burst of fuel. When you push in the ignition key it sends one burst of fuel for the amount of time that you hold in the key and the pressure in the bulb lasts only. If you pump the bulb but do not have the ignition key depressesed nor the test button and you have fuel flow at the choke then it is defective. If that happens then you can plug both hoses to disable it.

Your system is also a recirculating system with check valves. Make sure the three check valves, (one per cylinder), are functional.

As was mentioned before, you have to do a link and synch. If the mechanic that did the carbs did not do one then find another mechanic. I have to drive an hour and a half to test my boat in the water and it does get tiresome. A good land locked shop will have a test tank and a wheel that they can simulate near on the water conditions with. Anything else is just guessing.

 

[WhalerSailor]

Re: Caught in an electrical storm...the last straw!

Cheers... Was helping a friend last week with the exact same symptoms. turned out he had water in his fuel. After a lot of syphoning and refueling, the boat ran great for a few minutes, then bogged. While on the water we checked for a fouled plug by listening and unplugging plug wires one at a time until we unplugged one that made no difference to the idle... BINGO! Water had fouled out one of the plugs. Cleaned it and put it back in. Boat now runs fine.