Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)
*Note: The forum filled my post with formatting characters when I first tried to submit. I think I got most of 'em, but some may remain. Sorry.
Wow, lots of responses in a short time.
I'll go over the thread in another window to make sure I respond to everyone.
First, about moving. I'd love to, but thanks to the economy I owe about $40k more than I could get for my house on the loan (and that's optimistic). So unless I can pay that amount to close the loan, the only way I could move is by walking away from my mortgage. I've been trying very hard not to do that, unlike a lot of folks. In case I'm not clear here, it's not a matter of not wanting to pay that amount. Even if I added up all the money in my retirement accounts and bank, that's more than I have or can borrow.
Second, about going to court... the city has replaced court hearings for this type of violation with an "informal" process using a hearing officer. My experience with them has been mixed, but the important point here is that in order to take them to a "real" court I have to sue the city, which I may yet do for various reasons.
I'll take a picture of my property tomorrow and post it.
The legal advice I've gotten (from an attorney relative) so far says that the inspector was violating my curtilage (trespassing and privacy violation) when he took pictures of my property. Unfortunately that doesn't exclude them from civil court, and it especially doesn't exclude them from the hearing process the city uses, in which they encourage the hearing officer to use anything probative to make his/her decision.That doesn't make it legal though, so I'm still keeping a criminal complaint (statute of limitation is 6 years) or a civil suit as an option.
Again, I'd dearly love to move to the country.
About fences: Part of the problem may have been triggered by my desire to put up a privacy fence. As a first step in the process, I paid for a lot survey last summer. What the surveyor discovered was that the property line is not where the current chain link fence is. As a result, I'll be "annexing" about half of one neighbors raspberry patch and about a 7 foot by 100 foot swath of my nearest neighbor's back yard. Before anyone accuses me of provoking things, all I'm doing is measuring where the lines are so I don't build a fence on someone else's property. I don't mean to "steal" anyone's land, but if I pay a mortgage and taxes on land, I'm darn well going to use it instead of letting them have it for free.
I was planning a six foot privacy fence, but I've now upped that to 8.5 feet, which will require a building permit. I don't care though, it'll be worth every penny.
With regard to other locations and their laws, it's true that a lot of places have similar statutes. The thing is, my boats are in fact legally stored, that's not the issue. I even have an e-mail from a year ago where I asked code enforcement if they're legally stored on blocks in their current location, and they said yes. And it's not just that I can't work on them outside or in the driveway, it's that I can't work on them at all now that I have the city's attention.
For those of you making comparisons to cars, you're right in at least one way. Derelict car laws are typically much stricter than those involving boats, simply because there are more cars around. It's not really an apples to apples comparison for a number of reasons though, not the least of which is that my garage could store 4 cars in any state of repair easily, but can barely fit even one of my boats... and frankly they're not unusually large. By the way, legally I couldn't work on cars in my garage either.
To clarify in case anyone is wondering, I do not live under an HOA, just the city.
Again and again I see people posting how wonderful it is to live in the country.Couldn't agree more, wish I could.This was my first house, and I was intending to stay for 5-7 years and sell, building up a little equity in that time.Then the mortgage crisis happened, prices fell, etc. So I'm stuck here for now.
No argument again that having junk cars or parts strewn around is an issue, and lowers property values. Junk boats is sort of debatable, especially since there are a lot of boats around here. It's just that if the city doesn't get a complaint, they don't think about 'em. I do note that the city didn't ask me to move them somewhere they can't be seen like into the back yard, and they specifically don't allow tarps or covers to hide problems.
To those mentioning that I should see things from my neighbor's point of view, I'd like to ask which neighbors you mean... the one to the west who is a hoarder and has 3 garages worth of junk, the one to the east with three loud dogs who works on cars in his garage all summer long (both fine people by the way), or the one to the south who thus far I haven't met, and who has an untended garden in their back yard filled with broken yard ornaments and overgrown plants? I suppose I could try to see things from the point of view of the lady across the street, but I think she has her hands full dealing with her 17 year old special needs daughter and brand new granddaughter. I help her out in the summer with her mower and in the winter with snow. I kinda doubt she said anything.
If I had to guess at this point (which I do... the city steadfastly refuses to tell me who is complaining) I'd say it was either the silent people across the back fence, or more likely the nutty wife of the hoarder, who is still mad at the city for taking away 10 of her 13 cats. Her husband has a theory that we're on the daily commute route of some middle manager who works in the city somewhere, and who feels motivated to complain.
FYI, I've never complained to the city about my neighbors. Other than the fact that I believe in freedom and in treating others as you expect to be treated, even the most annoying things they do don't last forever.
Back to replying to thread topics... let's see...Location of the boats... as mentioned and as verified with a city inspector, the boats are legally stored. The issue isn't whether they're allowed to be kept there, the issue is whether they should be considered "junk" since they're "obviously non operational" according to the city. I'll note here that the city code mentions nothing at all about boats, nothing about the operational condition of boats, and nothing about non functioning recreational equipment except to say that it must be stored legally. It does state that for a car to be derelict it has to be valueless and abandoned.
For those advising me to rent or buy a space in an industrial park, again, I'd love to. Despite the fact that I'm probably fairly well paid compared to most (I work as a computer administrator) I do not have enough income to pay my mortgage (after refinance) plus rent on a second place (industrial space large enough to hold one of the boats would cost about $1100 a month rent here, I checked). Most loan firms would look at my debt/income ratio and just say no to a loan, so buying somewhere else is not an option. Again, I'd love to move....
I'd like to note to all those saying "you can't win against the city, it's a waste of time" that I did take your advice... in 2007. Back then, the city fined me for "operating a boat repair business out of my house" since the boats I had then didn't have registry in my name (I was going to get rid of them about two weeks after the citation arrived, and I did.... I didn't feel like paying a title transfer fee for boats heading to the landfill). The city's argument was that if they couldn't verify that I owned the boats, I must therefore be repairing them for someone else, which is not allowed per the city code. Bogus, so I went to a hearing about it. The hearing officer basically was an idiot... if I knew then what I know now about what he's allowed to do, he not only wouldn't be working for the city, he wouldn't be a lawyer any more either. Outcome of the hearing was that the $450 fine was reduced to $150. Challenging it beyond that would have required large legal fees, so I decided to cut my losses and pay, and hope the city didn't come back at me again.
I didn't hear anything from them for 3 years. Still had boats, still lived here.In 2010, I got a letter and a phone call from a CE inspector. She noted that "people had complained" about junk in my driveway again (logs, etc). I told her that it was supplies for landscaping related to my currently open building permit, and she asked if I wouldn't mind tidying it up a bit so people wouldn't complain so much. I told her no problem, and that I appreciated her working with me on it. Case closed.
However, the city did use the fact that a ticket was originally issued in 2010 as a "prior instance" for purposes of assessing me a larger fine this time and not giving me any warning or a deadline to clean up. I guess it didn't matter that it was essentially an error.
About the storage unit idea. Thought of that, too. But, there are no storage units around here that permit work on the premises, and if they did, I'd be scrambling to find electrical outlets, etc. I can't tow the boat back and forth to work on it at all. Per the city, no work is allowed except for minor maintenance, even indoors, on my property.That law is very broad, so technically no one in the city is supposed to work on anything in their garage related to cars or other motorized items, they just don't enforce it for most people. I think they're supposed to apply discretion to decide whether what they see is a problem, but they instead choose to not see anything not specifically reported, and apply everything they can to anyone they do "see".
To those suspecting that it may have been an ongoing problem for 2 years, or that maybe a code inspector was just doing his job, note that I asked specifically if that was the case.The code inspectors responded that they work exclusively off complaints. Again, I'd like to point out that it's obvious they don't look for problems... if they did, they've have to prosecute half the people in town for something.
With regard to the city "outlawing my owning boats" I think of it that way because according to the inspectors, I am not allowed to work on boats except for oil changes, etc. If the boats aren't small enough to fit in my garage (I boat on big water) then they have to be in running condition all the time. So I basically can't own any boat that's not working when I buy it. If it breaks down and they find out, they would require me move it, then either pay someone else to fix it elsewhere or pay for a space zoned industrial to work on it, then when it's working I could bring it home. I can't afford that, but I could afford to buy a boat and fix it up, which is a legal activity in many locations (just look at how many people read this board).
So, I have no options, even though I have the space for a boat and I wouldnt be bothering anyone, and even though many of my neighbors do own larger boats than me and keep them outside. It's the city's way of saying "we only want nice, clean, new boats to make our city look like a nice place to move to".
My boats aren't that big either... a 22 footer and a 28 footer at the back end of a 65 foot driveway and parked in the corner of a 133x110 lot. Part of the reason I bought this property is plenty of space.
It's possible people don't like seeing boats being stored there for long periods, and that's what prompted complaints.I should point out that up until this summer, the 22 footer was in my attached garage, hidden away. The 28 footer wintered over where it is now, no complaints from the city for the last year. Some people have said "nice boat, are you gonna fix it"? No one has said anything negative to me though, neighbors included.
So, after the hearing yesterday, here's where things are at. The fines have been stayed, and provided the property gets a clean bill of health on the 15th, the case will be closed. I actually cleaned up 99 percent of what they are complaining about before I got the citation, and this weekend I'm "detailing" my yard to get every little thing perfect. Still some dirt to be moved and grass to be planted, but generally it's pretty clean.
There are some points of contention though. First and most obvious is the boats.They won't permit me to cover or move them, they are currently saying they must be put inside or both of them removed.One of them is the 22 footer with a mostly brand new hull that I've posted pictures of here. It's half coated with white epoxy, so right now it looks a little odd, but I stopped work during that because I thought they might decide I was "painting". The 28 footer actually looks ok compared to a lot of boats I've seen, it just has a hole in the bow (pics are elsewhere on this forum) and some damage from the collision that "totaled" it.It's a 1986 Bayliner contessa if anyone cares. Both boats are on blocks at the moment.
They also called out a laundry list of other items. First, they complained the grass was too long. I told them that I'm not sure what they refer to, but that my hops (beer flowers) look like vines and sometimes prevent me from mowing right next to them. Also, the fence between me and my neighbor on one side is overgrown by mutual consent for privacy, but that's his fence on his property anyway. I also have an engine hoist that's too tall to put in my (short overhead) garage. They say I can't keep that anywhere on my property, including the garage, since an engine hoist is "commercial equipment". They also believe that my trailer must not only carry a lifetime license (it was licensed by the previous owner) but must be registered as such to me. Okay, I can go ask them to change the name on the license.
The most ridiculous one so far is firewood. The city allows firewood to be stored outside provided it's stacked properly with support 6 feet high max or 10 feet high if against a building. It doesn't say so in the city code, but they interpret the code to mean that bits of wood must not be falling off the stack, ie very neatly stacked.
Their point of view, told to me in so many words, is that firewood "comes from a tree", and that since the bulk of the wood in my wood pile is cut up 2x4s and similar (some is old wood from my house, other bits are picked up here and there), that it doesn't count.
There's no definition of firewood in the city code, by the way.
Note that I'm not saying any of the wood is plywood, particle board, treated, etc. It's all burnable per the fire department and pollution laws, and it's mostly pieces of pine, with some bits of oak and aspen, and some ironwood.
I'm tempted to ask if it would be legal for me to store if I obtain and attach a piece of bark to each stick. I guess a pile of firewood without bark isn't picturesque enough for them. Or something.
The major problem I have with the inspectors at this point is that they aren't targeting a problem to fix... they're targeting a person, and using every technical violation they can find to increase leverage on me, since if they went to one of their hearings trying to convince the hearing officer that my neatly stored and otherwise legal boats were a "public nuisance" they'd get laughed out of the room.
What I'm going to do at this point: If the visit on the 15th doesn't resolve things, I will likely take the city to the state court to argue that the law they are applying against working on boats and the one relating to storage are overly broad and should be vacated. Advice so far (from a lawyer) seems to say that this is likely... the laws are badly written. I don't want to do that since it'll cost, and I might not get the money back even if I win.
With regard to the outlawed activity or hobby of working on boats and cars in your garage, that's a bad law, and I'm asking the city council to change it. Our state is called "the land of 10,000 lakes" for a reason, and it's silly to not allow people to work on boats inside provided they follow the rules on noise, pollution, etc. That's really the problem with the way the law is worded... rather than just saying "You can't use toxic paint" and "you can't make lots of noise" or "You can't spill lots of oil and gas indoors and not clean it up" they chose to say "no working on anything" and to ban huge swathes of legal activities, with the expectation that the code enforcement people would avoid a general lynch mob by not fining half the residents.
I aim to let the residents know that they *could* be fined.. all they have to do is annoy one person, and the hammer will fall. Thanks to the city they'll never find out who turned them in.
By the way, if I go to court, I'm going to pull the records of code enforcement fines for 4 years as part of discovery and see just who they've fined. Edit: let's not go there - QC
Erik
