Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

[QC]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Or set a weight limit on the passengers (maybe age and sex also .....).

I hate sex limits . . . Pa, duh, duh . . . chish :redface: Sorry . . .

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Could be worse...he could be starting with an OMC Cobra or a 470!

Speaking of that, I AM starting with an OMC Cobra, haha. The puttery little 2.3L version that parts are almost impossible to find for.

However, I will be finishing with a new transom and whatever drive I choose. Definitely NOT an OMC setup.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Alpha = 85
Bravo 1 = 125
Bravo 3 = 145

If 40 or 60 pounds really bothers you, just leave an icechest at home. Or set a weight limit on the passengers (maybe age and sex also .....).

I'm thinking, female and under 29 years old?

But in all seriousness, THANK YOU. This is the information I was looking for. Now the question is all about COG. From personal experience, I know how quickly a vessel's center of gravity can shift due to a seemingly insignificant amount of weight in the wrong place. Put it this way, you wouldn't think something like moving a fuel tank a foot farther aft could shift the center of gravity a full 3-4 feet. But lo and behold, this is the reality of the situation with the rescue airboats that I did the CAD design for. In the grand scheme of things, the weight of the tank was a relatively small percentage of the total weight of those boats, but again, just moving the fuel tank back a foot caused our COG to shift pretty radically, affecting its ability to get up on plane, and warranted redesign of MANY areas of the boat.

So my next inquiry is this (and aimed at owners of one or the other, or both): Are the benefits of the B3 or B1 that much bigger than running an Alpha drive CAREFULLY? From what I can tell, here's a list of some of the pro's and con's to both:

Bravo III - pros
- Beefy (translates to durability over time)
- Reliable
- Twin-Prop (excellent hole-shot)
- Better oil transfer? (I'm inferring this based on the fact that nobody seems to complain about the size of the lower drain hole on these as compared to the Alpha)
- Impeller can be changed while on the water if necessary

Bravo III - cons
- Heavy (relatively speaking, >60 lbs heavier than the similarly-sized Alpha)
- Expensive (>double the cost of an Alpha, not including any repair costs)
- Twin-prop (proprietary to the drive, and generally in the realm of $1000 for a new set)
- Theoretically lower top speed, due to increased drag from the twin-prop
- Galvanic corrosion, which from what I have heard runs rampant on these drives unless you have the Mercathode set up professionally (meaning this is not an average DIY job)


Bravo I - pros
- Durable
- Reliable
- Smoother shifting than Alpha drive
- Comparable in price to an Alpha drive

Bravo I - cons
- Cost? Not really an issue, only slightly more expensive than Alpha drive
- Weight ~40 lbs heavier than Alpha


Alpha Gen II - pros
- Cost (brand new drive for around $1300)
- Weight (as stated above, ~85 lbs)
- Availability of parts
- Lower cost repairs
- Stronger gearsets available
- Low corrosion

Alpha Gen II - cons
- Reliability? Feel free to comment on your own experiences
- Durability (rated at 300HP, not recommended for more)
- Boat must be out of water to change the impeller

This is only a list compiled from the responses I've observed from other members on this and other various forums. Feel completely free to add or rebuke any of the things I have in that list.

At this point, I'm leaning more and more towards the Bravo I setup, as it seems to have a good balance between durability, reliability, weight, and ability to handle power.

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

That's such a small boat that I'd think a nice 4.3L v6 couples with an Alpha or a Volvo, pushing 200 or so HP would probably give you everything you needed, fit in there a lot better, and leave you a lot more money for things like a wakeboard tower, beer, etc...

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

And concerning the thoughts about the cooling setup, I bow to the greater knowledge of the gurus who have been around the block. I'm going to go with a closed-loop setup with a raw-water cooled heat exchanger, and water-injected dry stacks. Now you can all sleep soundly knowing that one more young whipper-snapper isn't going to try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

That's such a small boat that I'd think a nice 4.3L v6 couples with an Alpha or a Volvo, pushing 200 or so HP would probably give you everything you needed, fit in there a lot better, and leave you a lot more money for things like a wakeboard tower, beer, etc...

I'll be honest, I like to go FAST. And in all actuality, based on my automotive background, I have come to realize that 4.3L V6 parts aren't quite as plentiful as 350 V8 parts, and tend to cost more to maintain. I did actually consider doing that -- pairing an Alpha with a 4.3L Vortec, but decided against it, based on the cost of the rebuild parts and things like the headers.

I will say though, no beer will ever be allowed aboard my boat. I have no wish to risk all the work and money I'm putting into this project, just to have it get messed up because a friend decides to pound a few back and do something stupid. However, if you're talking about just saving money to have beer at the campsite, I'm totally with you on that one. Beer needs friends, too.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Now you can all sleep soundly knowing that one more young whipper-snapper isn't going to try to reinvent the wheel.

That is refreshing...

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Also, no one ever said cryo-treating isn't worth it, but it isn't worth it for your application of a 383 to an Alpha I. The cost and specialty tools used to disassemble/reassemble an outdrive are VERY expensive and if not put together exactly right, will shell the drive even with those cryo'd parts. The Bravo I sounds like the best setup for you, but keep in mind the USCG max HP limit for your boat, as reselling it with more than manufacturers recommended max HP could prove difficult down the road.

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I'll be honest, I like to go FAST. And in all actuality, based on my automotive background, I have come to realize that 4.3L V6 parts aren't quite as plentiful as 350 V8 parts, and tend to cost more to maintain. I did actually consider doing that -- pairing an Alpha with a 4.3L Vortec, but decided against it, based on the cost of the rebuild parts and things like the headers.

I will say though, no beer will ever be allowed aboard my boat. I have no wish to risk all the work and money I'm putting into this project, just to have it get messed up because a friend decides to pound a few back and do something stupid. However, if you're talking about just saving money to have beer at the campsite, I'm totally with you on that one. Beer needs friends, too.

That's fair. Although with the 4.3, judging from everything I've read, 50ish is fair to assume. How much speed do you anticipate from the setup you're planning? 60?

Just curious. I opted for the biggest motor I could get in the boat I wanted as well...that ended up being the 4.3. Seems like every smallish bowrider these days either has a 3.0 or a 4.3.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

That's fair. Although with the 4.3, judging from everything I've read, 50ish is fair to assume. How much speed do you anticipate from the setup you're planning? 60?

I have no idea what hull the op plans to use so I would have no idea what kind of top speed he might get. What I do know is that a healthy 383 can make way more power than a 4.3. Unless we are talking about a heavy hull, I would even pick one over a big block. They rev up much quicker than a BB. Top speed will definitely be better than a 4.3's but the biggest difference will be hole shot. The hole shot wont even be comparable, 383 wins without breaking a sweat.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

The 4.3 CAN be easily made to perform.

The Vortech heads work quite well for a stock head, but can still benefit from a little work, not extensive at all.

Camshaft, intake, and it wakes right up and still retains bottom engine torque and manners..

If you really want to wake it up look into any of the centrifugal superchargers, on a relatively light boat running an alpha, you'll smoke most ALL the V-8's.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Also, no one ever said cryo-treating isn't worth it, but it isn't worth it for your application of a 383 to an Alpha I. The cost and specialty tools used to disassemble/reassemble an outdrive are VERY expensive and if not put together exactly right, will shell the drive even with those cryo'd parts. The Bravo I sounds like the best setup for you, but keep in mind the USCG max HP limit for your boat, as reselling it with more than manufacturers recommended max HP could prove difficult down the road.

According to the USCG Pamphlet "Backyard Boat Building," the maximum horsepower rating only applies to outboard-powered boats under 20' in length, not I/B or I/O. That being said, I have no plans to sell the boat, EVER, unless I am destitute and on the verge of being homeless, LOL.

You are probably correct about the cryo-treating being too expensive and work-intensive to merit the added strength. However, there are probably still some parts that I will end up cryo-treating, like the vertical shafts, and the prop-shaft as well, since these tend to be weak points in the outdrive.

That's fair. Although with the 4.3, judging from everything I've read, 50ish is fair to assume. How much speed do you anticipate from the setup you're planning? 60?

I'm anticipating between 60-65 at WOT, when the engine is properly tuned and set up, combined with the optimal pitch prop and gearing in the drive unit. May not sound like a whole lot more, but every MPH you gain is 10 more times the fun on the water. Especially towing people on a tube.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

The 4.3 CAN be easily made to perform.

The Vortech heads work quite well for a stock head, but can still benefit from a little work, not extensive at all.

Camshaft, intake, and it wakes right up and still retains bottom engine torque and manners..

If you really want to wake it up look into any of the centrifugal superchargers, on a relatively light boat running an alpha, you'll smoke most ALL the V-8's.

He is starting with a 2.3 ford engine. If I was going to put in a different engine no way I would consider a little six popper. Yes, 4.3's can be made to perform but why? If you do everything you say to a v8 it will still leave the v6 in the horizon. Chevy v8's can usually be had for less money than v6's so I dont see any value in going to a v6. If he already had one I might see it worthwhile.

 

[86 century]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

why not a big OB

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

The 4.3 CAN be easily made to perform.

The Vortech heads work quite well for a stock head, but can still benefit from a little work, not extensive at all.

Camshaft, intake, and it wakes right up and still retains bottom engine torque and manners..

If you really want to wake it up look into any of the centrifugal superchargers, on a relatively light boat running an alpha, you'll smoke most ALL the V-8's.

Believe me, I know what you mean. The potential of a 4.3 is great, especially with a supercharger, be it a roots type, or a centrifugal. The only thing is (and I know this from working on various forced-induction systems), not only is it more difficult to tune an engine with a supercharger, a LOT of excess heat is generated. To my knowledge, there is no simple way to cool the unit. And to be honest, I would be much more worried about the potential for something to catch fire -- superchargers get EXTREMELY hot, and it would be near fiberglass and wood, not the metal that you typically find surrounding it in automotive applications. Plus, superchargers have a parasitic loss of power. Simply put, this is because it is adding increased load onto the crankshaft (since any supercharger is crank-driven). So you might gain 100HP, but you're sacrificing the potential for more power out of a comparably-sized turbo.

In addition, superchargers tend to suck WAY more gas than their naturally-aspirated counterparts. While I'm ok with sacrificing some fuel mileage with a tuned V8, a supercharger would likely push me out of the range that I'd like to stay within. However, since you brought up forced induction, I should tell you that I have a very large Arkay Turbo setup on a non-running 84 RX-7 that I'd be willing to pull and run with the 383. Also, the carb on that car is a Predator, so that's the carb I'll be running on the engine I'm building. The turbo and carb setup would likely keep me in the fuel consumption range I'd like, without compromising power. I do realize that the heat is still an issue, but I will cross that bridge when I reach it.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

He is starting with a 2.3 ford engine. If I was going to put in a different engine no way I would consider a little six popper. Yes, 4.3's can be made to perform but why? If you do everything you say to a v8 it will still leave the v6 in the horizon. Chevy v8's can usually be had for less money than v6's so I dont see any value in going to a v6. If he already had one I might see it worthwhile.

Precisely my thoughts.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

why not a big OB

If for no other superficial reason, I just don't like the look of an OB. I enjoy engine building, so not only is this a mechanically intensive project for me, it's fun! Working on an OB just isn't the same as building a throaty V8. Plus, an OB that would push me to the speeds I like, would likely push my wallet out of my pocket and into the fire. While I can build a high-powered 383 for under $5000, a comparably-powered OB would run me nearer to $10,000. Shoot, iboats lists a 225hp OB at around $12k. That's just too much for me to afford. At some point, I'm going to build / restore a fishing boat for my dad (he doesn't know that I want to do this), and at that point, I'll likely use dual OB's.

 

[coastalcruiser]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Volvo Penta 8.1GXi Has 420 HP @ 5000 rpm if your boat is 18' you will be able to go 60mph with a duoprop

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Volvo Penta 8.1GXi Has 420 HP @ 5000 rpm if your boat is 18' you will be able to go 60mph with a duoprop

Haha, I don't think I need that much combustion chamber real-estate.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Might have to shoehorn that 8.1L into the bilge, lol. That's a massive engine for an 18' boat.