csm in a blender

[fngboater]

Re: csm in a blender

i dont know whos right but has anyone had any failures because their peanut butter failed

 

[oops!]

Re: csm in a blender

sorry.....i totally disagree .....here is why.

ccp will not and does not ever say to mix mekp after the filler is added.
so where you have posted cook comp says to mix it in after is total mis information.

i have spoken on the phone to ccp (cook comp) head office in kansas city for hours on the subject.


i have been professionally trained over the phone by cook composite in the proper use of the resins and catylizing them.
i have attended classes put on by cook comp/comp one in the proper use of the product
i have been professionally and personally trained by the reps of the filler company's in the proper use of adding fillers to resins.

in fact....it is written in the cook book in the cast composites section. (the non link i gave)

the mixing of filler into resin is not new.....it is used mainly in cast products such as cultured marble or solid surface counter tops that most of us have in our homes and bathrooms.

we have all heard the name corian (counter tops) that is nothing more than poly resin....gellcoat....and filler.
the exact same stuff we are mixing (except the resin is clear).. the difference is the filler.....(and some vac mixing....and post cure) that is it.

the reason is simple......and you.....having mixed pigment in gellcoat before know this to be true.

when you mix a substance into resin.....it takes a very long time for it to fully mix.

lets look at adding a few squirts of white pigment to a black gellcoat.......you can mix the carp out of it....and after a few minits......you will still see a full strand of white in the mixture when all the other pigment seems to be fully blended.

a perfect real life example of this is cultured marble.
this is how they get the streaks of color in cultured marble. they just dont mix it till it is fully blended plus. the pigment is added after the filler is mixed with the mekp and resin.
now....imagine that the pigment in cultured marble is the mekp ! added after the filler is in.

this situation of streaking will magnify many times if the filler is added first. the mekp will not fully mix into the resin. unless you whip the stuff till it cures....and even then possibly not.

this is why the mekp must be mixed first. you catylize the resin...not the filler.

if we are mixing a pint of resin.....and 2 pints of powder...then another pint of 1.4 strand....do you really expect the shot glass full of mekp to be fully mixed into the resin with a few swishes of a stick?

the normal practice of mixing the filler first and adding the mekp later was developed by builders years ago.
the concept was to save the filler mixture......they could make a big batch of gype (the west coast name for thickened resin filler) and not add the mekp till needed.
that way, they could just use what ever amount they wanted and did not have to take the time to mix a new batch every time.
(this was during the years when the composites industry was very bad about training the customer in the proper use of resin and fiberglass)
however, in testing of the final product....data found the post mixed product to be significantly weaker than the mekp first/filler later process.
the reason was that the mekp was not fully mixed with the resin.
some areas of the castings were found to have more mekp in them.....well above the 2.5% celing, while others and little or no mekp.

did the stuff cure? did it get hard yes...it did........but was it with in manufactures specs of stiffness and stregnth throughout the entire casting?......no.

as well.....the use of power mixers in resin and gellcoat is fully recommended.
how are you going to pigment a 45 gal barrel of gellcoat?...with an oar?

when mixing large quantities....the longer you can get and sustain a vortex....the better the mix. occasionally the edges of the barrel must be scraped with a large stick or device to make sure full mixing is achieved.

it is recommended to mix a 5 gal pail of resin for at least 5 mins before use every time.

the reason power mixers in small batches are some times not recommended is because of the air introduced into the resin mix.....a simple vibrating or tapping of the side of the bucket will cause most of the air to come to the surface.
however, during the glassing process that we use.....once the resin is spilled out on the surface....the amount resin the air has to travel through to come to the surface is minimized....
so the use of power tools to mix resin,mekp and filler is totally acceptable.

YD.....when you are at work.....listen to your boss......do it the way he tells you.
here....on the forum....we will refer to the manufacturers requirements to make the final product with in spec.

i will discuss the mod hammering comment in private with you now.

oops

 

[oops!]

Re: csm in a blender

by the way.....the other links you gave,,,,

the people at the desk are rarely factory trained. they are kids at the order desk....lots have not even used the products. they just sell....

this is not true with all of them.....but with most of them.

there have been several instances on this forum where information given by the order desk was incorrect from an inadequately trained desk person.
a retraction and apology was given to the purchaser from them.

 

[93bayliner1800]

Re: csm in a blender

Personally....when I mix 55 gallons of PB. I use a 90 HP outboard....cause it beats the heck out of an oar!

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: csm in a blender

Quick question. If you should mix the cataylist into the resin before you add fillers. Then, how do all the commercially available "putties" work? You know, the ones that have milled fibers, microballons, fumed silica, etc already in them when purchased? Used to buy many 55 drums of these products for my work in the tooling dept. Using both MEKP and BPO, actually many of them were made to use either.

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: csm in a blender

The polyerization process needs a catalyst just to get it started. After that it is kind of a chain reaction. That's what creates the exothermic heat. The maximum amount of heat generated (peak exotherm) is a good indication of final cure. poly and vinyleater resins have an inhibitor mixed into them to stop this process until you add MEKP to overcome it. Without this inhibitor they would polymerize all by them selves with the addition of catalyst. I don't think you could ever mix anything enough to get a bit of MEKP next to every bit of resin. Not that there is enough MEKP to do that in the first place at 1 to 1 1/2% to start with. Sure you need to mix really good but the mixing is only part of the equation relating to final cure. The chemistry of the resin is what determines the final physicals.

 

[Decker83]

Re: csm in a blender

WOW!!!
What a great thread. Who would have thought this much information would be dicussed over putting CSM in a blender.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: csm in a blender

The polyerization process needs a catalyst just to get it started. After that it is kind of a chain reaction. That's what creates the exothermic heat. The maximum amount of heat generated (peak exotherm) is a good indication of final cure. poly and vinyleater resins have an inhibitor mixed into them to stop this process until you add MEKP to overcome it. Without this inhibitor they would polymerize all by them selves with the addition of catalyst. I don't think you could ever mix anything enough to get a bit of MEKP next to every bit of resin. Not that there is enough MEKP to do that in the first place at 1 to 1 1/2% to start with. Sure you need to mix really good but the mixing is only part of the equation relating to final cure. The chemistry of the resin is what determines the final physicals.

That is correct for Poly..

That is also why you NEED to EXACTLY need mix Epoxy in its proper mix ratio.

Epoxy uses a 2 part mixing of component A and B .. they chemically mix together ( perfectly .. that is why Epoxy is more "tight" or "linking" is stronger ). One compound of "A" is Joined together with another compound in part "B" of epoxy .. making the link together. Each part has molecules that Work in tandem ..together mixed they make the "chain". Too much of part A or B will give you free parts that can not join together in the mix. .. it needs a partner in Epoxy..

Poly is not like that at all.. Part "A" (resin) is mixed with another component ( MEKP ) .. this is NOT the "Hardener".. There is Nothing in MEKP that Mixes with the Ester resin to join the chain.. it just starts the Reaction.. Most of the Solution is given off in Vapor ( Smell of Styrene in the air ? .. yup .. gassing off because its Only a Binder/thinner of the resin ) .. MEKP is kind of like the "Fuse" .. and the "Match" that starts the chemical reaction (heat) .. once that reaction starts it typically does not stop.

There is Nothing in the MEKP that Chemically Mixes with the Ester in the resin..its just a Fire Starter.( A and B does not create a new molecule ). It just Starts the Reaction in its own solution.

Epoxy is different .. the A+B Actually creates a NEW molecule. They are DEPENDENT on each other to make the link. ( A+B ). They need each other to make the Link. .. too much of A..or too much of B will only Float free radical parts in the mix.

Again..Poly and Epoxy is NOT the same...

YD.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: csm in a blender

WOW!!!
What a great thread. Who would have thought this much information would be dicussed over putting CSM in a blender.

This IS Iboats ..

YD.

 

[oops!]

Re: csm in a blender

Quick question. If you should mix the cataylist into the resin before you add fillers. Then, how do all the commercially available "putties" work?

commercial putties like kitty hair and bondo are kinda the same...and you are correct that these will work, however, there is a big difference between will work and work according to spec. we have all seen bondo fail, and kitty hair not as much....but we have seen it fail.
the key to any sucessful mating of chemicals is in the mixing.

The polyerization process needs a catalyst just to get it started. After that it is kind of a chain reaction. That's what creates the exothermic heat. The maximum amount of heat generated (peak exotherm) is a good indication of final cure. poly and vinyleater resins have an inhibitor mixed into them to stop this process until you add MEKP to overcome it. Without this inhibitor they would polymerize all by them selves with the addition of catalyst. I don't think you could ever mix anything enough to get a bit of MEKP next to every bit of resin. Not that there is enough MEKP to do that in the first place at 1 to 1 1/2% to start with. Sure you need to mix really good but the mixing is only part of the equation relating to final cure. The chemistry of the resin is what determines the final physicals.

this is very true.....however.....

however, in testing of the final product....data found the post mixed product to be significantly weaker than the mekp first/filler later process.
the reason was that the mekp was not fully mixed with the resin.
some areas of the castings were found to have more mekp in them.....well above the 2.5% celing, while others and little or no mekp.

did the stuff cure? did it get hard yes...it did........but was it with in manufactures specs of stiffness and stregnth throughout the entire casting?......no.

in a thremolitic reaction, heat is the key.......some of the areas showed over catylisation.....this makes the area weak and brittle. (because the resin bakes)
other areas showed that little reaction occured.

translate that into a wide spread area like tabbing a transom......where the area is 2 inches thick of peanut butter, and spanned over a total of 10 feet.....
hot and cold spots will occure if the product is not evenly mixed,,,,,

does it get hard.....yes....does it cure.....yes......is it within spec.......no.