Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

[QC]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Hey Uncle Dave,

I appreciate your comments as clarity is soooooo important in these discussions. The level of misunderstanding is very high; even from those of us who deal with it every day.

I agree on the "same engine" comments. I was going to even mention compression ratio, but replaced with "same engine" to shorten the discussion. The problem is that it is not a short discussion. There have been a few here that claim to get the same "volumetric" fuel efficiency running E85 in a flex fuel vehicle as they do with 100% gasoline. I submit that is virtually impossible.

While I am no chemist, I appreciate the sand in gravel analogy. Here's a challenge for ya . . . Can you do a Gasoline, E10, E85 "volumetric" comparison? Basically showing a gallon of each and the total BTU's? LHV so that it is relevant to the numbers I posted?

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Oh... Another Ethanol thread.....

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

There's no way to get the same efficiency out of an engine on both e85 and pure gasoline. Point in case: my 08 F150 will run on e85, but it will get worse gas mileage while doing so. It it also recommended by Ford to decrease the maintenance intervals when using e85 (read: change oil more often) and to run a full tank of regular gasoline every 4 or 5 tank of e85 to flush out the system. Now, if you had an engine designed to run e85 as its primary fuel, which would likely be higher compression to accept the higher octane capability of e85/pure ethanol, then you could gain the same efficiency as an identical engine size/components set up to run pure gasoline. Ignition timing is a workaround fix to run e85 in normal engines as compression can't be effectively changed easily. Very few variable-compression engines exist (a Saab project comes to mind). Either way, it's a terrible idea for a fuel at this point. CNG would be an infinitely better idea if looking at alternative fuels outside of fuel cell/battery technology.

 

[PeteyDaMan]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

remember kids, corn and boating just don't mix....literally.

 

[hog88]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

The warning not to mix with non-ethanol gas is probably because straight gas USED to contain MTBE--MBTE---Oh, Hell, M something. This compound , when mixed with ethanol in the presence of moisture did form a gel that clogged carbs, filters, lines etc. It is NOT in straight fuel today because it was phased out by law a couple of years ago.

I won't address the argument that it takes more than one gallon of gasoline to compound one gallon of ethanol. Our government does do some counter-intuitive things but since the mandate to use ethanol to reduce dependence on foreign oil would be counterproductive if it took more gasoline to make ethanol, I doubt our govt. would do that.

Really? Your joking right? Ethanol is nothing more than a gov't give away program and they could care less about how effecient the production is.

 

[hog88]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

There's no way to get the same efficiency out of an engine on both e85 and pure gasoline. Point in case: my 08 F150 will run on e85, but it will get worse gas mileage while doing so. It it also recommended by Ford to decrease the maintenance intervals when using e85 (read: change oil more often) and to run a full tank of regular gasoline every 4 or 5 tank of e85 to flush out the system. Now, if you had an engine designed to run e85 as its primary fuel, which would likely be higher compression to accept the higher octane capability of e85/pure ethanol, then you could gain the same efficiency as an identical engine size/components set up to run pure gasoline. Ignition timing is a workaround fix to run e85 in normal engines as compression can't be effectively changed easily. Very few variable-compression engines exist (a Saab project comes to mind). Either way, it's a terrible idea for a fuel at this point. CNG would be an infinitely better idea if looking at alternative fuels outside of fuel cell/battery technology.

I agree 100%, there is no reason we should not be running CNG in most highway vehicles. If (years ago) the gov't would have had the forthought to support expanding the distribution system we could be foreign oil free by now.

Edit: No politics please! It will cause this thread to go away

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

My marina says the fuel is Non-ethanol, but is there any simple way to test that? They are charging a premium for it. I'd just like to know for sure it is non-ethanol before I pay the extra $$$.

along these lines there's no way to know the true percentage of the ethanol. This came to light a couple yers ago here when a gas station sold a batch of incorrectly mixed gas that caused all kinds of problems in the cars that bought it. They said that the mixing process is not very precise, or monitored, so you never really know what you are getting.

If you think about the mechanics of fuel mixing and delivery from the pipeline to the in-ground tank, there are a lot of steps along the way where someone could mess up--put the wrong blend in the wrong hole. But it is also apparent that the numbers being off slightly has no appreciable effect, either.

And there's always the possibility that the unscrupulous would sell the cheaper product as the more expensive--pouring the Aristocrat into the Grey Goose bottle, so to speak.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Hey Uncle Dave...

I will assume that was directed at Uncle Willie?

I appreciate your comments as clarity is soooooo important in these discussions. The level of misunderstanding is very high; even from those of us who deal with it every day.

I agree on the "same engine" comments. I was going to even mention compression ratio, but replaced with "same engine" to shorten the discussion. The problem is that it is not a short discussion. There have been a few here that claim to get the same "volumetric" fuel efficiency running E85 in a flex fuel vehicle as they do with 100% gasoline. I submit that is virtually impossible.

This is definetly NOT a short subject, and an Apples to Apples comparison would take Bell Labs to even get close.
It usually becomes a religion in the sense that everyone seem to have their person belief that Ethynol is either a blessing or a curse and no amount of logic will change their opinions.

While I am no chemist, I appreciate the sand in gravel analogy. Here's a challenge for ya . . . Can you do a Gasoline, E10, E85 "volumetric" comparison? Basically showing a gallon of each and the total BTU's? LHV so that it is relevant to the numbers I posted?

I have attemped to find any data on the the amount of Volumetric Reduction involved in the mixtures and could not find any. I also believe that there should be a scientific term for this phenomenon, but couldn't find that either. Entropy of Mixing is the closest I found, but it's not quite correct.
I would attempt to perform a test by doing an actual mix but Anhydrous Alcohol would be required.
It is hard to come by, hard to keep and very expensive!

This issue comes up every week and all the Myths and Old Wives Tales pop up each time.
This has been driving me crazy for a while!
I have been doing some Mythbusters type testing in my garage for the last few months.
(Something to kill the time over the winter!)
I have a half dozen Gasoline "Tanks" in various conditions of sealing and fullness testing to see just what is true and what isn't.
Many interesting result so far.
I will be starting a major post with the results in a week or two. Stay tuned!

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

My marina says the fuel is Non-ethanol, but is there any simple way to test that? They are charging a premium for it. I'd just like to know for sure it is non-ethanol before I pay the extra $$$.

Very easy to test!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEK3CaJ-u0o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE

~25% water, mark a line, the rest Gas, Shake it, Wait. Look!
If the water level goes up any at all, you have alcohol.
If you don't care what the exact amount is, any jar will work!

 

[2ndtry]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

The warning not to mix with non-ethanol gas is probably because straight gas USED to contain MTBE--MBTE---Oh, Hell, M something.

You were right the first time: MTBE or Methyl tertiary butyl ether.

 

[QC]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

I will assume that was directed at Uncle Willie?

Sorry :redface: Not even sure how that happened as I went back to double check before I posted :facepalm:

I have been doing some Mythbusters type testing in my garage for the last few months.
(Something to kill the time over the winter!)

Well the good news is you haven't ended up dead

I will be starting a major post with the results in a week or two. Stay tuned!

I can't wait Let me know by PM if you want any CNG/LNG contributions

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

The volume difference when mixing ethanol and gasoline is a very small percentage reduction because both are non polar solvents and the amount of volume decrease is insignificant to the BTU difference of the gasoline vs the ethanol. On the other hand if you mixed equal parts of water and ethanol you would get a 2% shrinkage in volume which is still pretty darn small. Equal parts ethanol gasoline will be a lot less than 2%.

The warning for mixing 10% ethanol with 0% ethanol gasoline is because it is way easier to get a phase seperation because 5% ethanol, which you could get from mixing equal parts of the two, can hold less than half the water of 10% ethanol. It's not a linear relationship.

 

[ricohman]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Guys,

these threads either go political or they are rife with wives tails or they are technically inaccurate. Usually all three. Let's keep it to facts and info, OK? Thanks.

E10 has a very small impact on energy density, and there are benefits too like Octane. I am not a fan, but I can be fair. What engine parts are "degraded"? Annnnd I would think water absorption is good in small doses. Especially if there is any real risk of water collecting at the bottom of your tank (I think that risk has been proven to be quite low.) But if it did collect, wouldn't the problem continue to get worse if the water was not somehow dispersed (burnt?)

I guess my point is that I am always suspect of information that only points out the bad stuff. There are two sides to most coins.

I older engines, orings, fuel pump diaphrams, fuel tanks, carbs. Everything.
Up north where we store bikes and boats for up to 8 months a year we find this fuel turns into milky junk in the carbs on bikes and the float bowls in boats. I've actually had to remove a fuel tank and clean all the carbs on my zx11 and the tank on my BMW. In cold weather this fuel absorbs water like a sponge and fuel lines are always freezing. I hate ethanol.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

I have been doing some Mythbusters type testing in my garage for the last few months.

Well the good news is you haven't ended up dead

Wow, You CAN put a Quote inside of a Quote!


It's not really that thrilling.
Just a bunch of jars on a shelf in an unheated, detached garage.
Then recording a bunch of numbers twice a week about how much has evaporated and how much water has condensed.
About as exciting as watching paint dry!

But then, what you expect to happen never does!

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Does your fuel island have this warm fuzzy?

Ethanol laced or not (supposed to ETOH free), I just decided to top off the tank since fuel isn't getting any cheaper over the next few months. I had just under 1/2 tank. Amount to top it off? ....$715 WITH my immediate pay discount

The only saving grace is that I only do this twice a year, so when you break it down on a yearly basis, roughly $100 a month for fuel isn't too bad...

BTW, when I bought the boat, marina fuel prices were $1.75 per gallon and I thought that was a rip off!!