Dumb & Dumber

[projecthog]

Re: Dumb & Dumber

The latest story on that ice flow, what their not telling you, turns out there was a ship that went through busting up a 100yd swath of ice which caused the whole thing. A buddy was telling me about it, said you could see right where the ship went through on GPS satelite view.
I haven't heard anything official so far just heresay.

If you are talking about Google earth satellite views, I think they are atleast 1to 20 year old scans.
If I am wrong in assuming that you meant Google earth, I apologise.

PH.

 

[projecthog]

Re: Dumb & Dumber

Sad thing that happened there.

I don't know all the circumstances around the event so anything I say may be in error, but I do have opinions, and I feel like unloading.

I agree that caution should have been the better part of discretion that day.
Going out on big ice when temperatures and winds change like a woman does her mind, and bridging gaps when you should know the weather or the time of the season is not favorable to the risks you want to take, is not conducive to long living, neither is failing to plan for extreme contingencies in extreme conditions!
That's where the conversation could have stopped.

Isn't it a fact that a bigger part of life threatening situations almost always seem to happen through stupidity, or miscalculation which pretty much is stupidity or incompetence in itself anyway? So what are we debating? The money? Part of the tax money probably went to places it shouldn't have gone in the first place anyway. I can think of a few examples of where it shouldn't have gone (in hind sight mind you, I am not that smart) if we wanted to get into politics, but TD probably wouldn't tolerate that and wreck the fun.

The cost incurred to affect a rescue, is always money wasted if you look at it from a point of view that says someone was stupid to go out there.
What kind of thinking is that? What good result does that produce?

These people didn't collectively and purposely set out to go and be stupid, or to see if they could get the coastguard to come out there to rescue them. Heck there were 150 of them out there! that alone could make it look pretty safe to any normal person who wanted to try that too!
Lets be realistic, survival thinking more than likely only happens in the minds of those who have gone through the ice before or professionals who work on it. Most people do not think of the immediate dangers that lurk behind what they do, or neglect the possibility of it.

Mistakes were made, and the Coast guard followed up with what it does extremely well while they wait to fight the forces of evil. But was it really any different than the the people who live out near the fault zone in Cailifornia? or the folks who love to live in or near the hurricane zones? For most it is a way of life or part of it.
Thank heaven for the Coast Guard! and others.

As for the rescuers having to risk their lives, that's what rescuers do, risk their own lives for the safety of others regardless of circumstances. If everyone made sound decisions they wouldn't be needed.
A life was lost due to a decision that the person made who lost it, and not for any other reason. The same process could kill the rescuer except that he is trained and decides on an informed basis because of what he does, but he does not have to do it. That is a decision he makes.

Hats off and get off your chair for any of those men and women who (in my view are heroes no matter what anyone says!) go and risk their own lives to save someone else's!!

If rules and laws were in place prohibiting folks from venturing out on the ice after a certain level of danger has been set, and apropriate punishment and fine issuing could have been in place upon violation of those laws (no not jailing), I think that perhaps a life could have been saved without all of the circumstances that prevailed that day.
If indeed that were the case.... I would apologise for my uninformed comment, but instead wonder about commitment on the PD's part.

In the aftermath, the real sad thing is that one life was lost, eventhough surely all efforts were made by the rescuers and probably the folks on the ice to not have that happen.

I do not icefish or operate any machines on ice anymore for the simple fact that being on ice and having worked on it has proven to me more then once that ice is like a threacherous and cantankerous old woman at the best of times and I have broke through it a few times while others stood by with heavier equipment then I was operating myself.
In my opinion being out on any ice away from shore is a dangerous proposition at the best of times unless it is in a place where you can be sure to reach land in a very short time, touch bottom or have a team standing by to fall in should you break the bubble, no matter how safe someone says it is that doesn't go there himself.

All you crazy ice fishing fiends can holler at me now, go ahead make your day!

That was a few cents worth enough. Back to brooding over the layoff!
PH.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Dumb & Dumber

As for the rescuers having to risk their lives, that's what rescuers do, risk their own lives for the safety of others regardless of circumstances. If everyone made sound decisions they wouldn't be needed.
A life was lost due to a decision that the person made who lost it, and not for any other reason. The same process could kill the rescuer except that he is trained and decides on an informed basis because of what he does, but he does not have to do it. That is a decision he makes.

The problem with your position is that it ignores the reality of being the person who has to risk his or her life, for the benefit of another. There are degress of ignorance involved in any preventable acident or incident, but there are no clear lines as to what level of mistake is acceptable and what level is not. That said, there are very definately extremes which are clearly beyond "the gray area."

People who become Coast Guard rescuers, police officers, EMTs, fire service members, etc., have a strong drive to be of service to others. They are also well known for doing things to that end, that most others wouldn't. Sometimes those things are to their own detriment. When such a person dies or is gravely injured in the line of duty, and the need for the rescue is due to gross negligence on the part of the "victim," there becomes a second tragedy in the accident.

In my opinion, judging those who risk the well being of others through their own easily foreseaable and preventable mistakes, is fair.

 

[projecthog]

Re: Dumb & Dumber

The problem with your position is that it ignores the reality of being the person who has to risk his or her life, for the benefit of another. There are degress of ignorance involved in any preventable acident or incident, but there are no clear lines as to what level of mistake is acceptable and what level is not. That said, there are very definately extremes which are clearly beyond "the gray area."

People who become Coast Guard rescuers, police officers, EMTs, fire service members, etc., have a strong drive to be of service to others. They are also well known for doing things to that end, that most others wouldn't. Sometimes those things are to their own detriment. When such a person dies or is gravely injured in the line of duty, and the need for the rescue is due to gross negligence on the part of the "victim," there becomes a second tragedy in the accident.

In my opinion, judging those who risk the well being of others through their own easily foreseaable and preventable mistakes, is fair.

Hi there Jay,

I can't disagree with you on what you wrote here at all,

I tend to just spout off my thoughts and a lot of times find myself in a spot just like this one.

I think you touched it pretty good there with your gentle but definitely clear view on the need to serve others, the dangers connected with it and the lack of responsibility of others causing that service to be exersised.

I didn't mean to leave out or deminish the importance of the responsibilities that were obviously in serious neglect on the part of the rescuees, and the very real life threatening efforts of the rescuers which invariably are dangerously intensified by careless behaviour or decisionmaking of self made victims in most circumstances.

I more or less commented on the event in reaction to the statements that were made as to stupidity and deserving a cruel lesson (which without help would be the natural result anyway) and taxes and the seemingly natural urge for folks to express their disires to form a lynching mob.
They invariably are all notions that do not hold anything constructive, other than to vent indignancy. Understandable no doubt.

I am no different I think, other then that I make a conscious effort not to judge to quickly or I tend to be more forgiving towards a seeming lack of forethought when it comes to disasters like the one that happened there.

I attempt to learn and am still learning to look at things in a more immediate and practical way, to be effective and not to wast time with acusation and fingerpointing, I try (and fail almost just as often) to leave that to the people who judge and make laws.
I stumble in those attempts quite often, but I try.

In any case, you made very valid points and I am thankful for them, they can only add to the collective wisdom of those who read and want to learn.

PH.