E85 is such a joke

[Knot Waiting]

This has probably been posted several times before but I didnt get to voice my opinion on them. So here goes...

Considering the tilling, planting, harvesing, and transporting of E85 producing crops we use 1.5 gallons of petroleum to make a single gallon of ethanol. (oil is transported via quiet and efficient pipelines)

The equipment reaping the E85 crop cannot run biodisel because it fouls egr valves and the like (it voids John Deere, CAT, and Ford warranties if you run biodisel)

Ethanol delivers about 2/3 the fuel economy of regular gasoline and barely costs ANY less.

Most vehicles cannot run E85 and even the ones that can do so poorly and with frequent fuel related problems (I should know I work for Ford service)

We still have over 4 billion cars, trucks, boats, etc, that will NEVER be able to run on this junk

E85 has never been proven to pollute less in the long run, in fact the rendering facilities actually pollute more.

Bush outsourced 72% of our ethanol production to switchgrass growers in Brazil (Yet another foregin country producing our oil, wtf is the point?)

And... now that food is at its highest retail prices ever we are caught wondering why.... Hmmm... Maybe because FOOD was never meant to be a goddamn fuel supply...

Just stupid that we even pursued this endevor. Someone got rich and we got screwed. Thats my rant, just had to get it out there , thanks - Logan

 

[QC]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Although I TOTALLY agree with you, a couple of clarifications are in order. Off road diesels do not have EGR so that isn't happening, and in the case of Caterpillar, nothing voids their warranty. Literally nothing . . .

For example, you can run Mayonnaise in the crankcase and if you have a water pump failure, that is still covered. If you had a fuel injector failure that would be covered . . . However . . . if you spun a rod bearing due to lack of lube, threw a rod and windmilled a block then you just bought an engine That would not be a "defect in material and workmanship" so it would not be covered becasue that is what they warrant . . . "defect(s) in material and workmanship". Those awesome little words straighten out almost everything when you get down to it

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: E85 is such a joke

You need to turn around...... you are preaching to the choir!!!

 

[Knot Waiting]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Perhaps I mis-spoke by including CAT in that stat, my bad. I do know that John Deeres new 6, 7, & 8000 seires have an EGR valve. Worked at Deere as a service writer/warranty adm. We got denied quite a few claims from our Dist manager when it was discovered that bio diesel was used.

Alibet, my point still remains that E85 is not a viable solution, and creates more problems than it attempts to resolve.

How did we even get to using this garbage if everyone I talk to agrees that it is a horrible waste?

 

[Twidget]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Ummm, I would say politics, but you cant mention that anymore.

 

[Knot Waiting]

Re: E85 is such a joke

I would agree that some "business on Washington" played a vital role in E85's conception. Still blows my mind that this many people feel it is a worthless product and many know of the side effects. Yet somehow there are enough idiots out there to make it profitable still?

 

[mscher]

Re: E85 is such a joke

This has probably been posted several times before but I didnt get to voice my opinion on them. So here goes...

Considering the tilling, planting, harvesing, and transporting of E85 producing crops we use 1.5 gallons of petroleum to make a single gallon of ethanol. (oil is transported via quiet and efficient pipelines)

The equipment reaping the E85 crop cannot run biodisel because it fouls egr valves and the like (it voids John Deere, CAT, and Ford warranties if you run biodisel)

Ethanol delivers about 2/3 the fuel economy of regular gasoline and barely costs ANY less.

Most vehicles cannot run E85 and even the ones that can do so poorly and with frequent fuel related problems (I should know I work for Ford service)

We still have over 4 billion cars, trucks, boats, etc, that will NEVER be able to run on this junk

E85 has never been proven to pollute less in the long run, in fact the rendering facilities actually pollute more.

Bush outsourced 72% of our ethanol production to switchgrass growers in Brazil (Yet another foregin country producing our oil, wtf is the point?)

And... now that food is at its highest retail prices ever we are caught wondering why.... Hmmm... Maybe because FOOD was never meant to be a goddamn fuel supply...

Just stupid that we even pursued this endevor. Someone got rich and we got screwed. Thats my rant, just had to get it out there , thanks - Logan

The people that "run" our lives, may have been pie-eyed from drinking moonshine (ethanol), but apparently are starting to sober up and share your view.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080501/NATION/462824208/1001

Boy, who saw this coming? ;(

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: E85 is such a joke

You're absolutely right... I mean, apart from every one of your "facts" being wrong that is. But, I'm tired of re-explaining this, so I'll just say, go pick up a book about it sometime.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: E85 is such a joke

What SgtMaj said.

For example, John Deere has a 10 page whitepaper on agriculture bio-fuels. That can't be summarized to "it voids John Deere, CAT, and Ford warranties if you run biodisel(sic)". To which biodiesel blend were you referring? B2, B5, B10, etc?

 

[JB]

Re: E85 is such a joke

While I agree with your basic concept. . . ethanol is not a good solution to our fuel problem. . .I also agree with SgtMaj, your supposed "facts" are not facts at all, merely mythology.

If our engines were designed and built from scratch to optimize ethanol fuel they would burn cleaner and get better miles per BTU, but. . . a. they aren't, and b. we don't have the arable land to produce more than about 20% of what we would need to completely replace gasoline. We wouldn't need it then because we would all have starved to death. Brazil has the land. That makes a big difference.

As an octane booster ethanol is far safer than lead or MTBF. We should limit its use to that.

 

[QC]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Let's examine the "facts" real quick, because some are correct . . .

There are various studies that show that producing ethanol is a big greenhouse gas loser. Some show by a lot . . . But there are subsidies, and businesses react to economics. If those economics are because of somebody else's blunder then so be it. (Edit: before anybody says anything, I think Global Warming is hysteria causing carp, but if the measure is Greenhouse gasses or cost, then those things are part of the discussion)

Biodiesel is a different discussion and since there was no mention of what "blend" I am leaving it alone. I stand corrected on Deere's use of EGR, but I'll say they are flippin' stupid if they are using it and they don't have to.

On a volumetric basis the 2/3 thing is about right. On a BTU basis they are pretty darn close, so I'd say that one is about half right. Those that can run it are optimised for it . . .

4 Billion? No way, but 99.9999 % of in use, gasoline powered vehicles cannot run E85 properly. If they have been converted you can get a throttled, stoich, spark ignited engine to run on it pretty well.


Regardless of what anybody tells you, any engine can run with poor emissions on anything, and most can get better emissions on anything too. There is no magic fuel that automatically cleans up everything for every emission component. Maybe Hydrogen, but don't get me started. I prefer to talk within some realm of reality.

I don't know about any outsourcing.

Food prices have been negatively affected.

Many things are stupid. This one has some stupid pieces to it . . . Domestic energy supply, however, is probably enhanced.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Let's examine the "facts" real quick, because some are correct . . .

There are various studies that show that producing ethanol is a big greenhouse gas loser. Some show by a lot . . .

Right, there are studies that show, that if you produce ethanol in the least efficient mannor, out of the least efficient materials, that it does use more fuel than it creates... The obviousness of why those studies don't matter because they aren't studying the way it's actually produced, or from what, seems to escape many people.

So I'll repeat myself again... just do some research on it yourselves.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: E85 is such a joke

While I agree with your basic concept. . . ethanol is not a good solution to our fuel problem. . .I also agree with SgtMaj, your supposed "facts" are not facts at all, merely mythology.

If our engines were designed and built from scratch to optimize ethanol fuel they would burn cleaner and get better miles per BTU, but. . . a. they aren't, and b. we don't have the arable land to produce more than about 20% of what we would need to completely replace gasoline. We wouldn't need it then because we would all have starved to death. Brazil has the land. That makes a big difference.

As an octane booster ethanol is far safer than lead or MTBF. We should limit its use to that.

Since switchgrass is 3x more efficient than corn at producing ethanol, and is an off-cycle crop, it can be grown in the off-cycle rotation without disrupting any food crop growth. As to whether or not we have the land to replace our entire gas supply, we probably don't without replacing at least some food crops with switchgrass, which is counter-productive anyway. So you're right that we should use it to suppliment our energy needs and reduce our gasoline dependancy. Using a 20% blend instead of a 10% blend would do wonders for us. Of course it's not going to be able to supply 100% of our energy needs, no single source can. The key to a good energy policy is utilizing a comprehensive mix of energy sources. Gasoline will always be a part of that mix, at least for the next 100 years or so... after that, who knows what other energy sources we might discover. Ethanol should also be a part of that mix, as should solar, nuclear, wind, hydro, geothermal, and even wood and coal. It goes along the same lines as not putting all your eggs in one basket. Ok, now I'm really done...

 

[Knot Waiting]

Re: E85 is such a joke

Before I get beat too hard on this I want to clarify a few things. I never stated any of the aforementioned points as "fact". They are issues based on statistics I compiled from various resources (ie: Newsweek, Popular Mechanics, Jalopnik, Wikipedia, etc). Granted every statistic can be skewed to reflect the point of the interested party; I feel that they are also somewhat derrived from fact. That being said, I feel that most are accurate.

The United States has over 70 million cars in operation, over 1 billion cars world wide as of 1999 (none of which are ethanol ready). An equal number of [registered] commercial and recreational boats worldwide. I also added "ETC" in the statement meaning a finate number of ATV's, snowmobiles, lawnmowers, generators, mining/farming equipment, and various other fossil fuel burning engines exist; so I dont feel that 4 billion is an erroneous figure.

As far as the Deere and Ford warranty go, yes there may be warrantable exceptions or blends that would permit bio-diesel to be run. As a whole however bio-diesel is a black sheep among those manufacturers and often is not tollerated in new equipment. I corrected my error on Caterpillar.

E85 has been proven to deliver lower fuel economy (1/3 less on average) even E10 is slightly less efficient.

E85 makes a great solvent (fuel system cleaner / octane booster) yes. However long term exposure to the chemical will and does dissolve plastic fuel lines, couplers, intake manifold gaskets, injector o-rings, and any other soft material in the fuel system. Thus leading to and alltogeather more costly to maintain vehicle. Even the "flex-fuel" GM 5.3 and 3.7 engines have a TSB on them stating that their special intake gaskets will errode over time.

Various other E85 drawbacks can be debated on a case by case bassis untill we are blue in the face. My main point in this thread was that this "alternative" energy we are being force fed in a seirous detriment to our economy and was only pursued as a knee jerk reaction to the green party.

We need to re-think our approach on this before we destroy ourselves. Viable resources remain in development but this is not one of them.

 

[PW2]

Re: E85 is such a joke

I thought Brazil's ethanol production is being done primarily with sugar cane?

We have so many farm subsidies covering one thing or another, how anyone could correlate anything in any sort of direct way to food prices is a mystery to me.

However, with oil at $120/barrel with projections of it going to $200 soon, we better figure out something, global warming or no global warming.

It's all nice to complain about ethanol, but it's not as if we can return to crude and pretend ethanol never happened.

 

[QC]

Re: E85 is such a joke

I thought Brazil's ethanol production is being done primarily with sugar cane?

It is.

We have so many farm subsidies covering one thing or another, how anyone could correlate anything in any sort of direct way to food prices is a mystery to me.

The fuel itself and our farmers enjoy subsidies and/or tax credits . . . both drive business (farms) to make decisions on what they grow and what they do with what they grow. And . . . it causes other businesses to buy more. Supply and demand always matter, so the fact that demand has increased due to fuel price subsidies (Energy Policy Act has alternative fuel tax credits on a per gallon basis) is directly caused by Government action. Corn prices have increased to the point that even tortilla prices in Mexico have been affected. Not sure why this is hard to understand . . . Think of it as plywood

 

[PW2]

Re: E85 is such a joke

It is.


The fuel itself and our farmers enjoy subsidies and/or tax credits . . . both drive business (farms) to make decisions on what they grow and what they do with what they grow. And . . . it causes other businesses to buy more. Supply and demand always matter, so the fact that demand has increased due to fuel price subsidies (Energy Policy Act has alternative fuel tax credits on a per gallon basis) is directly caused by Government action. Corn prices have increased to the point that even tortilla prices in Mexico have been affected. Not sure why this is hard to understand . . . Think of it as plywood

QC, the difference is that no one yet is paying subsidies to plywood producers. They either make the plywood for less money than the revenue they get when they sell it, or they go out of business. It is pretty much a pure supply and demand situation.

The subsidies to farms add another level to complicate the equation, not to mention the additional manufacturing and distribution costs of the product.
How much revenue goes to the farmer when you buy that $4.00 box of corn flakes, vs how much they get from a gallon of ethanol? It's a much more complicated situation than plywood producers face.

 

[guy74]

Re: E85 is such a joke

QC, the difference is that no one yet is paying subsidies to plywood producers. They either make the plywood for less money than the revenue they get when they sell it, or they go out of business. It is pretty much a pure supply and demand situation.

The subsidies to farms add another level to complicate the equation, not to mention the additional manufacturing and distribution costs of the product.
How much revenue goes to the farmer when you buy that $4.00 box of corn flakes, vs how much they get from a gallon of ethanol? It's a much more complicated situation than plywood producers face.

The last figures I"ve seen on the $4 box of corn flakes is around $.10 goes into the farmers pocket. I don't have any stats on how the cost of ethanol breaks down yet, but I'm looking though some info. When I find some non-polically skewed info I'll pass it on, but it's hard to find the truth on any controversial topic.

 

[QC]

Re: E85 is such a joke

QC, the difference is that no one yet is paying subsidies to plywood producers.

My point was only that if you were given a $10 per 4 x 8 sheet subsidy to ship your stuff to Guacamolia, you would . . . and demand for those sheets would rise, and the price would go up and so would the domestic price to build a house. So correlating food price increases (corn) to subsidies given to corn producers should be easy enough to understand.

I was only reacting to your comment that you couldn't understand how some could make the connection between subsidies and food prices. I thought if I made the subject Plywood that I could get you there . . .

 

[guy74]

Re: E85 is such a joke

I just wish it was true that there were subsidies being paid to the corn producers. Maybe if you all read the farm bill (all 2000+ pages)you would know where the subsidies are really going. But what do I know I'm just a farmer out here in SE Kansas.