Ethanol additive

[Blind Date]

We have had ethanol blended fuel in the state of MN longer than anyone. My anecdotal experience is that I've seen more problems with straight gas than I've ever seen w/ethanol blended fuels. The comment that they are an excellent fuel system cleaner is right on. Ignore the the old wives tales how they pull moisture out of the air and then phase separate. If the fuel was good going in and the boat fuel system is working as designed, not gonna happen.

 

[Lightwin 3]

I've never had any issues with E10. However, I do have water separating filters and I do treat it with a stabilizer if I know it's going to sit. Just good habit.

The others are correct though. E 15 and E20 and higher is a different story. Not because of water so much but engine control strategy. Outboards are certainly becoming more sophisticated but they are still a ways away from auto powertrains. Much of that has to do with operating temperatures. Outboards run with essentially open cooling systems.

My cars/trucks can use up to E 85 however I no longer do. The price difference is not worth the loss of delivered/observed fuel economy. There are less BTU's in E 85 as opposed to E 10.


The energy of ethanol relative to gasoline
A. 76,000 = BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol
B. 116,090 = BTU of energy in a gallon of gasoline
C. .655 = 2/3 = GGE of energy in a gallon of ethanol. A / B. (GGE =energy in a gal. of gas)
D. 1.53 = Gallons of ethanol with the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. D = B / A.

 

[Silvertip]

Flex Fuel cars also have special fuel system components that deal with the corrosive effects of ethanol. That is also why ethanol fuel must be trucked rather than piped. Auto ECU's adjust the engine timing to take advantage of the higher octane. At one time I worked with a fellow that burned E-85 in his old Ford Ranger pickup that was obviously not a flex fuel vehicle. The truck suffered no ill effects -- at least that he would talk about.

 

[JimS123]

Here's another twist to an already boring topic....

In my state the Govmt periodically checks gasoline stations.

The news media sometimes checks Indian stations incognito and find crap gas with pumps that don't deliver 1.00 gallon per gallon....but that's another story. Buy gas at your own risk.

The interesting part is that gas suppliers are actually quite poor in QC. If you buy ethanol free there is a good percentage of the time that you get ethanol in the gas anyway. And to make matters even worse, some 10% ethanol gas could be as high as 20%.

Millions of people use this stuff unaware that they don't get what they think. And millions don't know the difference and have no problems anyway.

 

[frantically relaxing]

The alcohol sucks water from the air and causes the fuel to gel up. The biggest problem is if you have an old motor that was not designed to run with ethanol in the fuel. The fuel lines and fuel pump's get eaten by the ethanol (additives don't help with this).

Total nonsense.

Really--? then please explain this gel in the carb bowl of my 18 year old Briggs/Stratton -Toro lawnmower. I can assure you no one put diesel- or Jello- in the gas tank

To add: During the only season we drove the Party Cruiser, the power continually kept dropping. When I pulled the carbs, I found the insides coated in places with brittle green stuff, and tiny shards of this green stuff were everywhere, including some in the jets, the lower 2 carbs were the worst. Since the oil was green, I can only assume it was the source, and what else besides the alcohol in the fuel could've caused it to harden like glass?

We need to EAT corn, not put it in our gas tanks...

 

[high&dry]

I would suggest that one ignore the nonsense that ethanol blended fuel will not absorb moisture and then phase separate as it is factual, known, proven and based on science. For boats that are used frequently it should be a non-issue, for boats that may be laid up for weeks or months between usage, it is indeed a potential problem and I have seen it and the results.

 

[Sprig]

Ethonol gasoline is hygroscopic meaning it absorbs water. It can absorb water from the air. Alcohol is like a wick when it comes to water. Ethanol gasoline can absorb 50 times more water than non-alcohol gasoline. This is part of the reason why the shelf life of ethanol gasoline is much shorter than non alcohol gasoline. Besides absorbing water from the air , condensation in the gas tank, carbs and other parts of the fuel system is a major source of water in ethanol gasoline.
Unless you run your boat a lot and are putting fresh gasoline in your tank a couple times a month it is prudent to put stabilizer at each fill up. I do so with my boat. It’s cheap insurance against problems caused by water in the gas.
I use StarTron which I think is superior to Stabil but Stabil is a fine product.

 

[high&dry]

Sprig, when I have had to use ethanol blended fuel due to lack of availability of no-ethanol gasoline I too used the Startron additive. I believe it to be an excellent product. But, no-ethanol fuel can still degrade over time and thus a stabilzer such as Stabil is still a wise thing.

 

[JimS123]

Funny thing about boats. They are in the water. OMG, sometimes water gets in the gas tank. Why? Maybe the system has a leak, maybe the gas cap isn't tight. Maybe the vent is crap. I dunno.

Obviously, newbies are scared. Never been here before. In the old days, a little water in the gas meant a tow home. Now, the ethanol absorbs it and you're good to go. But those same newbies that don't take care of their equipment get TOO much water over some period of time, it phase separates and now ethanol is the devil.

For some of us that have had boats for 50+ years, and ethanol for 20+ years, its never been a problem. In fact, in the old days a carb rebuild was on the todo list. Now the cleansing properties on ethanol have not made (in my case anyway) a carb rebuild necessary in many many years. Not just the boat, but my classic car as well.

I like ethanol. Sure, it gives poorer fuel economy, but buying non-eth gas isn't cost effective.

The only gunk I ever saw in a fuel system was from a vehicle that was eons old (not eth safe lines), or they bought the gas at a $%^&* station at a cheep price.

My oldest motor bought new (that I still have the manual for) specifies gas stabilizer for long term storage. Stabil is only a new concept to youngins. Anybody that hasn't figured that out yet may be ripe for fuel problems.

 

[Sprig]

I’m no newbie, I’ve owned boats for 50+ years and I’ve seen numerous problems in boats from ethanol.. From water in the fuel, phase separation, gunk in the fuel system , deterioration and failure of rubber fuel lines and fittings etc. I’ve seen people who didn’t properly winterize their boats and fuel and at the end of winter their ethanol fuel suffered phase separation . Whe; they tried and failed to start their boats they had to have their tanks drained and fuel system cleaned. I’ve seen pieces of rubber from deteriorated fuel lines in the carbs , clogging up fuel filters and other problems. Ethanol fuel is bad but we are stuck with it and have to deal with it.

 

[Silvertip]

flex fuel engines are different than simple small engines. on a flex fuel engine, the ECU compensates timing and fueling based on the amount of corn squeezings in the fuel. small engines, outboards, etc. go into melt down around 15% ethanol as simple EFI systems and carbs can not adjust.

hence the big old sticker on small engines, outboards, motorcycles, etc up to 10% max.

Kawasaki, Briggs, Subaru, Honda, Ryobi, etc had a bunch of failures a few years back with their motors in outdoor power equipment, specifically in a few specific states. turns out the fuel was close to E20 and being labeled as E10. this is what stirred up OPEI, NMMA, AEMA, AMA, AACA and GIE (among others) to petition the EPA. Many lawsuits followed

comparing your flex-fueled chevy to a marine motor is like comparing tomatoes and peanuts.

You missed my point in this comparison. My Impala engine is no different than a boat engine but yes -- it has a very different fuel system. The "engine itself" doesn't care if the fuel contains ethanol. It is the fuel delivery system that feeds the engine that raises the issue. This is why flex fuel fuel systems have corrosion and ethanol tolerant components. Modern electronics also allows automatic fuel and timing adjustment to compensate for the various fuels. But the engine itself does not care and neither do boat engines. Yes -- lean mixtures fry engines but that happens with or without ethanol.

 

[Chris1956]

Gee, still a lot of wives tales (mostly false) about the horrors of e10 gasoline.

E10 does not suck water out of air. It absorbs the water already in the gasoline.

Modern fuel line and fuel pump components resist E10 just fine.

If doesn't clog fuel filters, at least not after it has cleaned the fuel system on the first fill up with E10.

It does phase separate into alcohol/water and gasoline, but E0 separates into water and gasoline, not much difference. as your motor will burn neither and the water separator will trap either.

Some people use a stabilizer over the off-season. Not sure what fuel you stabilize makes any difference.

Startron makes claims that I find very hard to believe. If may stabilize fuel, but I doubt it does more than that.

Maintain your boats, use fresh fuel, and E0 and E10 will perform just fine.

 

[JimS123]

I hate onions. They give me terrible heartburn. I won't eat any food with onions in it. One time my wife made a special dish with onions and after dinner she told me. It was funny, sort of, but it really p@#$ED me off when she said she has fed me that for years but didn't tell me. Now it gives me heartburn so I won't eat it any more.

In my area we were using E10 for 5 years before we even knew it. Nobody had any problems. Once they told us everybody's problem must be alcohol related.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Interesting after all the posts the OP hasn't commented.....

 

[Lightwin 3]

The OP found out what they needed and are now burning gas!

 

[tacx]

LOL, Well now I'm more confused then ever !!!

 

[jkust]

Out of curiosity, I filled my 60 gallon chaparral gas tank with Non-Ethanol for the first time just to see what happens. Recall I've done this on my waverunner and picked up a few MPH on the top end vs E10. I picked up about 3.5mph on the top end. Fastest the boat has ever gone but cost me about an extra hundred bucks over the e10. I was surprised to say the least.

 

[Sea18Horse]

LOL, Well now I'm more confused then ever !!!

Well howdy, Now that you're back maybe you could clear up some confusion on our end. Namely, what exactly is this "ethanol additive" of which you speak?

Cheers.....................Todd

 

[tacx]

I was asking about ethenol fuel stabilisers. Such as Sta -bils " marine ethenol fuel stabiliser".

WIMUSKY....why would I comment? I asked the question? And, it seems it hasn't been answered. I will gather the info, process it, and decide to use or not to use.

Thanks to all the contributors

 

[briangcc]

Ahh but it has...along with some other info as well.

Stabil - use it for long term storage. Winter layup OR if the boat won't be used on a regular basis. IF it's sitting in a slip being used regularly, really no need for Stabil. This is the reason that cars/trucks don't need Stabil - you go through the gas quickly with use.

And this is true whether you use E10 or E0 (ethanol free) gas through your boat.