Ethanol and outboards

gcboat

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
1,822
O.K. - since I'm in the market for a used motor does anyone know what year the manufacturer's started making their motors "ethanol safe". Or is that just a figment of my imagination? :confused:
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Ethanol and outboards

Anything after 1990 will be safe but I believe you can go back to about 1987. However, any older engine will run just fine on ethanol blended fuel. You just need to be aware of some maintenance issues -- inexpensive ones at that. Even if you buy a newer engine, if the fuel system was neglected it doesn't matter if it ran blended fuel or not, it will have fuel related problems. So, put your mind at ease and if you buy an older engine, replace all of the rubber parts in the fuel system with up to date parts -- fuel lines in particular. Rebuild the carbs using new kits after the carbs have been soaked, and all passages and jets made squeaky clean. Some older plastic floats may need to be replaced with ethanol tolerant pieces. Clean the gunk out of the fuel tank because if you don't the ethanol. which is an excellent cleaning agent will loosen it up and deposit it in the fuel filters. Keep a couple spares on the boat. Once that's done, go boating. Your engine will live just fine.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Ethanol and outboards

No motor is "ethanol safe". Even today's outboards are designed to tolerate up to 10% ethanol. The problem - even with E-10 - is that when ethanol fuel sits it seperates. The water and ethanol settle on the bottom of the tank. When you start the motor you aren't running on 10%, you may be running on 80% or more.

There are additives like Startron that help. Make sure you have a 10 micron filter and change it often. If possible use non-ethanol fuel. Most marinas have ethanol free fuel. The local BP station here is ethanol free. I've heard of BP stations in other areas being ethanol free too.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Ethanol and outboards

Better get braced then because there is talk of bringing 15% and even 20% into the market. In an area like Minnesota where boats are layed up nearly six months out of the year, those of us who treat our fuel can pull those boats out in the spring with zero "ethanol" issues and this has been the case since we began using corn squeezin's back in 1997. It is simply not an issue here unless you ignore the fuel system. Ignoring the fuel system whether you run E10 or regular fuel will bite you down road. Since we have an abundance of E-85 here (currently only 16 cents cheaper than E-10) we have lots of people running 50-50 and even straight E-85 in vehicles that are not E-85 certified. Certainly not what I would do but a buddy has an old Explorer that runs E-85 whenever he can find it.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Ethanol and outboards

The E-15 is more than talk. It's coming. The race motors in Europe are running on E-85 this year. Mileage goes out the window but that's where the government is headed. On the up-side it keeps the repair shops busy.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Ethanol and outboards

using alcohol resistant fuel lines helps also.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Ethanol and outboards

resistant is a trick word.
it doeas not mean "proof".
kinda like a wrist watch that is water resistnt, may be ok with sweat just dont wear it when washing the dishes.
we are seeing late model tanks dissolve and the resins plug carbs and injectors.
we are seeing late model type A1 fuel lines failing that are label alcohol resistant, we are seeing the fuel sender floats dissolve and pass the resins to the engine, where it wont pass.
silvertip must not be dealing much with boats stored in relativly high humidity and relativly warm weather with tanks holding 100-290 gallons.
as the alcohol seperates, and it has no choice but to, the remaining fuel has an octane rating that simply cannot be tolerated in most larger(V6 and up) moden outboards.
we pulled one out of the stack recently that was winterized, put to bed full of fuel(165 gallons) and treated with star-tron and ring free.
I personnaly pumped over 15 gallons of watery goo from the tank and had to dispose of all the fuel and clean the entire engine fuel system.
granted the boat sat inside in the dry stack since about september but what do you do.
I had told the guy to leave the tank empty but he simply would not believe me.
like I say, my 21 seapro holds 65 gallons,my 27 albemarle holds 240 gallons and my 18 hydra-sport holds 36. the 14ft jon with the 9.9 I just toss the fuel occasionally.

all are vented to the atmosphere and in my area the average humidity is in the 70% and up range and our average winter temps are in the 50"s or so.
ethanol is the biggest waste ever inflicted on the US public, AIG and such excluded, and there is nothing we can do about it.
like Dhadly said, it has keept me busy :).
so while I am glad in silvertips area the E junk kinda works, in my area its simply nasty stuff that is chasing customers out of boating.
was really hoping the class action lawsuit in the FL area was going to work.
if ya really believe in the E junk try to buy it for an airplane.
the FAA simply said no.
I have heard of dealerships in my area that are finding E junk concentrations as high as 30%. so far I havent bought the Ejunk fuel test kit but briggs and stratton sells it, part number 100023, google it.
yamaha says anything over 10% may damage the outboard.
remember as the E junk phase seperates a certain amount of Ejunk is on the bottom. this may increase the actual amount of E junk being fed to the engine as most fuel draw tubes are close to the tank bottom.
couple that with continuing the cycle by adding more E junk and very bad things can happen quickly.
best thing I can sy is what we are trying, change the water seperatoer every 10 hours until the fuel drained from the seperator is spotlessly clean then change it every 50 hours or twice per year and once per year remove the fuel sender and draw a sample from the tank bottom and Pray.
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: Ethanol and outboards

Well Rodbolt: all I can say it that is yer guy that likes this kinda stooooooopid corntrol stuff, and that is certianly NO SECRET. I hope ya know that. :p

The state of Washington, (on the left side of the Cascades) is a high humidity Soviet enclave that has shifted to 10% cornsqueezin's this winter that I hope goes back ta dyno fuel later this spring. "HOPIN' FER CHANGE" right Rodbolt????

I'm now buyin' ARCO (which is the cheapest fuel) fer my SUV, (which I usually avoid), as ya can't get any fuel free of the corn stuff in the bright blue metro area I live in and I also make sure to try to run every tank nearly out of fuel prior to a new fill up, fer the reasons you have stated herein, (that I whole heartedly agree with).

I have some stabilized mid grade dyno fuel up at RR island that I will feed me hungry inlines until I'm forced (by the Soviets who run this place), ta buy the cornbased stuff later in the year (if things don't revert back durin' warmer weather) as has happened in the past and I hope happens later this year, but I have my doubts with the new Sherrif in town. ;)

I may even ponder makin' a trip out of the metro area with a large tank to secure some dyno fuel if the Soviets require corn based fuel this summer, which they prolly will.

They certianly know this causes inflation in food, (which they are doin' on purpose IMHO), unless they don't have a functional brain cell they can engage.

They certianly know this brings short term bidness ta you and Silvertip and other ace mechanics.

They also must know that in the long term it will discourage recreational fuel cornsumption, so it will not be good fer anybody, (except Gubmint werkers n' pols who gain power over all our lives), in the long run.

Central corntrol is the real objective IMHO, so I hope yer real proud of yerself, as ya can take a good long look in the ol' mirror fer the root cause of the current direction we are now headed.

Me over priced $.02. JR
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Ethanol and outboards

I want some
I want some
I want some of whatever old merc is smoking.
ya must be daft cause it was federally mandated by your guy BOOsh or whoever was in charge in june of 08.
not that it matters I am neither elephant or donkey.
both parties are rather sickining and the flip flopping on both sides makes me a bit seasick.
but politics is neither here nor there.
the E junk was simply a vote grabbing knee jerk thing from all parties.
I am not knocking green technologies such as E-85 or pure ethanol, nor CNG nor LPG nor bio-diesel.
all have a place.
just not in a general mandate for a blanket coverage.
whats killing me is stuff like since 1998 all marine gasoline outboards have to be EPA certified. which means if the manufacturer wants to change any of the previously certified components the entire package must be recertified for that new combination of ign,fuel,intake and exhaust controls.
its also why now an electric start 25 hp two stroke short shaft costs 3300 bucks or so.
outboards are typically low sales volume for the cost of manufacture vs the investment recouped by units sold.
tends to make units and parts very costly.
I am not an economist but I understand simple things, like GM should be allowed to fall, as chysler and AIG and a few others.
packrd fell, studebaker fell, nash and cord and a litany of automakers since the late 1800's.
always though some other company saw a profit and stepped in to try to make it.
same with AIG, not all of AIG's divisions were in trouble. it should have been allowed to fail, spin off the viable divisions,even at 50 cents on the dollar and things would recover rather quickly.
maybe some of the warrent buffet and rush limbaugh types would have to actually drive their Bently's to the harris teeter and hump their own groceries but as heart wrenching as it sounds its better than some.
so dont bust my chops about any guy.
I actually voted for Mickey Mouse in 08 cause he actually has a business plan.
but going back to the E-10 for the marine industry, I hate the stuff. yes I make a lot of money repairing the damage it causes. but I have boats to and its already caused one of my powerheads to fail and has caused some filter and VST issues on my 07 F150.
last week I replaced a 2 year old 5.7 MPI volvo that phase seperation seems to have caused some valve failures.
this is going by the white paint looking deposits on the valve faces.
even the volvo factory rep looked at it and agrees.
boat is an 06 bradly custom so old tanks and lines are not the issue.
I have been doing this type work 30 years and have never seen intake and exhaust valve deposits nor fuel system degredation issues like I see now on new stuff.
last 8.1L merc I did a high pressure fuel pump on 2 months after our glorious fuel mandate,august of 08 whoever was in charge then, the pump ran fine just developed no pressure.
I cut the pump open and found the 3 nylon prongs on the armeture end that drive the pump had sheared off. engine had 220 hours.
I also found the nylon was so soft that I could pick off chunks with my finger nail.
merc would not warrenty it as the motor was 2 months out of warrenty, took me 5 hours to change it and the pump cost 379 dollars.
customer wasnt happy but it wasnt my fault so I billed him.
what can I do, I dont design them and I did not alter the fuel blend they were desined for I just get tasked with trying to make them run again.
about your functional brain cell comment, you may be onto something.
out of the 30 some odd Billion we gave GM ya know what they did last week? they sent 1 Billion to Brazil to upgrade a GM plant there.
trouble is nothing they build in Brazil can be sold in the US due to impact standards and EPA standards. same as 2 weeks ago GM china anounced a 2 billion dollar profit for GM China plant sales in china and last month GM opened a 300 Million dollar production facility in russia.
almost makes one proud dont it :)
kinda like merc moving mid range outboard production to their new 30 million dollar chinese facility and closing albemarle and lund and a few other american made hull lines.
more things change the more they seem to stay the same huh?
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: Ethanol and outboards

I want some
I want some
I want some of whatever old merc is smoking.

It is jus' a natural high there Rodbolt. Maybe the function of the sole brain cell doin' all the heavy liftin'. ;)

ya must be daft cause it was federally mandated by your guy BOOsh or whoever was in charge in june of 08.

Central Corntrol is Central Corntrol no matter which arse in in charge Rodbolt.

not that it matters I am neither elephant or donkey.

Me neither. :D


both parties are rather sickining and the flip flopping on both sides makes me a bit seasick.

A big 10-4!!!!

but politics is neither here nor there.
the E junk was simply a vote grabbing knee jerk thing from all parties.

Yup, the inordinate destructive influance of Iowa on both parties fer sure.

I am not knocking green technologies such as E-85 or pure ethanol, nor CNG nor LPG nor bio-diesel.

I'm not knockin' 'em, I just object to the political imposition of Central Corntrol. If it was voluntary the greenies could float thier boats on all sorts of stuff of their choice, n' werk themselves in to a frenzy over the weather. Sigh: sadly it is not voluntary, NOR SANE.

all have a place.

A very small place.

just not in a general mandate for a blanket coverage.
whats killing me is stuff like since 1998 all marine gasoline outboards have to be EPA certified.

Yup CENTRAL CORNTROL, how long do ya think it will be before ya need permission from a faceless Gubmint nit wit before takin a breath of air?

which means if the manufacturer wants to change any of the previously certified components the entire package must be recertified for that new combination of ign,fuel,intake and exhaust controls.

Central Corntrol. Ya gotta have job growth don't ya Rodbolt?

its also why now an electric start 25 hp two stroke short shaft costs 3300 bucks or so.

Yup.

outboards are typically low sales volume for the cost of manufacture vs the investment recouped by units sold.
tends to make units and parts very costly.
I am not an economist but I understand simple things, like GM should be allowed to fall, as chysler and AIG and a few others.

10-4. I dunno about AIG as that would have cratered the whole world's financial system, (look at what Lehman, [far smaller with far less impact that caused massive problems when she blew]), but they should have had a corntrolled BK n' broken it up n' fed it to remainin' private functional entities instead of makin' it the latest cash cow n' scape goat side show fer the Pols. :mad:

packrd fell, studebaker fell, nash and cord and a litany of automakers since the late 1800's.
always though some other company saw a profit and stepped in to try to make it.

Yup.

same with AIG, not all of AIG's divisions were in trouble. it should have been allowed to fail, spin off the viable divisions,even at 50 cents on the dollar and things would recover rather quickly.

Yup, I already said that prior to readin' this part.

maybe some of the warrent buffet and rush limbaugh types would have to actually drive their Bently's to the harris teeter and hump their own groceries but as heart wrenching as it sounds its better than some.
so dont bust my chops about any guy.


I actually voted for Mickey Mouse in 08 cause he actually has a business plan.
but going back to the E-10 for the marine industry, I hate the stuff. yes I make a lot of money repairing the damage it causes. but I have boats to and its already caused one of my powerheads to fail and has caused some filter and VST issues on my 07 F150.

I hope the dyno fuel is allowed to come back this summer but if not I will see if Eastern Washington is allowed to burn dyno fuel. I have not researched the State laws that cause this mess yet.

last week I replaced a 2 year old 5.7 MPI volvo that phase seperation seems to have caused some valve failures.
this is going by the white paint looking deposits on the valve faces.
even the volvo factory rep looked at it and agrees.
boat is an 06 bradly custom so old tanks and lines are not the issue.
I have been doing this type work 30 years and have never seen intake and exhaust valve deposits nor fuel system degredation issues like I see now on new stuff.
last 8.1L merc I did a high pressure fuel pump on 2 months after our glorious fuel mandate,august of 08 whoever was in charge then, the pump ran fine just developed no pressure.
I cut the pump open and found the 3 nylon prongs on the armeture end that drive the pump had sheared off. engine had 220 hours.
I also found the nylon was so soft that I could pick off chunks with my finger nail.

Wonderful. :mad:

merc would not warrenty it as the motor was 2 months out of warrenty, took me 5 hours to change it and the pump cost 379 dollars.
customer wasnt happy but it wasnt my fault so I billed him.
what can I do, I dont design them and I did not alter the fuel blend they were desined for I just get tasked with trying to make them run again.



about your functional brain cell comment, you may be onto something.
out of the 30 some odd Billion we gave GM ya know what they did last week? they sent 1 Billion to Brazil to upgrade a GM plant there.

I don't have a problem with GM fixin' their plants in Capitalistic Countries fer survival, it is jus' the union pay back quid pro quo with tax dollars our new POTUS that really bugs me. BTW I didn't like it under the previous guard either.

trouble is nothing they build in Brazil can be sold in the US due to impact standards and EPA standards. same as 2 weeks ago GM china anounced a 2 billion dollar profit for GM China plant sales in china and last month GM opened a 300 Million dollar production facility in russia.
almost makes one proud dont it :)

We are moving to Socialism while China is makin' big money with Capitalism. I wish our POTUS would use his brain n' ponder the stooooooopid direction he has pointed us in.

kinda like merc moving mid range outboard production to their new 30 million dollar chinese facility and closing albemarle and lund and a few other american made hull lines.

Can ya blame 'em?

more things change the more they seem to stay the same huh?

Yup we are tryin ta replay the game plan in 1932. This time we start out heavily in debt. Do ya really think a lack of savings and excessive spendin' problems can be corrected by more FOOLISH spendin' n' borrowin'? If so I have a bridge fer sale: BTW, IT FLOATS!!! :D JR
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Ethanol and outboards

What's causing more and more topics becoming political?

It's the governments medeling in everything there is! Everything we do has some form of government regulation and it's getting to the point of saturation and people are getting sick and tired of it more and more. It is going to get worse and worse and it will never get better untill we have some kind of a revolution and let these pencil pushers know that we are sick of it. We will continue to get pushed around as long as we take it!!!!
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: Ethanol and outboards

What's causing more and more topics becoming political?

It's the governments medeling in everything there is! Everything we do has some form of government regulation and it's getting to the point of saturation and people are getting sick and tired of it more and more. It is going to get worse and worse and it will never get better untill we have some kind of a revolution and let these pencil pushers know that we are sick of it. We will continue to get pushed around as long as we take it!!!!

10-4 LD.

From the first terlet flush in the mornin' to the light switch ya hit jus' prior to yer head hittin' the pillow at night, (cap n' trade) fer those who believe the fairy tales about 'tax cuts' from the ol' tooth fairy hisself.

Every action is now designed ta further Central Corntrol, n' if ya can't see that I have a bridge fer sale. BTW: IT FLOATS!!!! :D:D

JR
 

rolmops

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
5,518
Re: Ethanol and outboards

Oh Murky,Murky.
Those comments of yours belong fair and square in the motor mouth universe.
I think that you should try living in a real communist country for a while,that is,if there still is such a thing.That would really increase your appreciation of how wonderful our country is,while at the same allowing you to see where it could use some improvements.
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: Ethanol and outboards

Hey hold on.....
icon_baseball.gif
This ones goona go poof fast....To the MOON ALICE....:D......................
rip.gif
 

coolguy147

Commander
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,817
Re: Ethanol and outboards

well i got this race trac next to my house cheap gas there all the time. it says less then 10% ethanol. would this hurt an older older outboard like 1959? i replaced all fuel lines and the diafram in the primer. and rebuld the carb with new kits and new float
 

freddyray21

Commander
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
2,460
Re: Ethanol and outboards

get back on track there is a section for rants like your's old mercs
 

rolmops

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
5,518
Re: Ethanol and outboards

well i got this race trac next to my house cheap gas there all the time. it says less then 10% ethanol. would this hurt an older older outboard like 1959? i replaced all fuel lines and the diafram in the primer. and rebuld the carb with new kits and new float

I have run my 1957 Johnsons with either 10% or 15% ethanol for at least 10 years and I have not had a single problem so far.The old carburetors have only 2 big rubber seals and that is on the carburetor bowl and the other is on the glass bowl.I did not replace either of those and they are still in great condition.
I do not see any reason to worry.
Murky's comments have more to do with his ideology than with engine performance because of fuel changes.
 
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