Ethanol problem solved?

[Beefer]

So I believe I have water in my tank (gee there's a shocker with the wonderful E10). Everyone here says drain and clean the tank, as well as on other forums. Ok. Before I do it, I decided I would get some Kolor Kut, and see if there actually is water in the fuel. Called about 40 places before I found someone who carried Kolor Kut, and got to talking to the guy. He's a boater, too, and as a bonus, is a fuel specialist (I think he said chemist, but not sure). He started talking about the science behind the problems with E10, about what they do about it (the company deals with service station's tank related issues), and how they correct the different problems that station owner incur with the wonderful stuff.

He told me to verify with the KK, or visually, that water was present, and then if it is, to just use a gas dryer. Not dry gas, but a gas dryer. It's a sponge-like thing that absorbs water from fuel holding tanks (big & small), and does not absorb the fuel. Ok, I now own 2 of these. I'll let you know how it works, but this is what they use when your local service station has a water problem with their fuel. It's not for massive correction (obviously), but should work for my (our) purposes.

He then proceeded to talk to me about fuel/water separators, and how they have some that remedy fuel separation associated with E10. It was something like it filters out the ethanol that separates from the mixture, in a similar way that a F/W filter handles the water. This will take care of both water and the separated ethanol.

Have any of you gurus out there heard of either the water absorbing 'sponge' or the 2micron filter that works with the fuel breakdown issue? I called every retailer in the metro St Petersburg area, and no auto/marine parts place or service center knew about either of them. However, I did call 3 commercial fuel suppliers, and they were all aware of it. Did I stumble onto a secret ethanol fix?

 

[robert graham]

Re: Ethanol problem solved?

Racor and Yamaha make 10 micron and 2 micron fuel water seperators that work great, but I use the Walmart unit($27) and it works fine also. If you have a lot of water in your fuel tank, then you need to remove it because the seperators will only handle a certain amount. Some of the Racor units have a clear bottom chamber with a petcock drain so you can see and drain the water. I run the 10% ethanol gas in my motor and i've never had any issues with it at all, although I've heard a lot of folks have had problems with it.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol problem solved?

He then proceeded to talk to me about fuel/water separators, and how they have some that remedy fuel separation associated with E10. It was something like it filters out the ethanol that separates from the mixture, in a similar way that a F/W filter handles the water. This will take care of both water and the separated ethanol.

Gasoline and ethanol can not separate without the presence of water. The ethanol molecules attach themselves to the water molecules and combined weight of the ethanol/water molecule causes them to fall out of solution and fall to the bottom as an ethanol/water mixture.

Your standard water/ fuel separator has no problem removing this solution of water and ethanol. The problem is that the ethanol is used as a source of octane in the gasoline. Now all of a sudden your feeding your motor lower octane fuel that it is designed to run on. This is the reason why some say to run a higher than normal octane in an attempt to mitigate the drop in octane should phase separation occur.

FWIW: In the 4 years, and probably 4,000 gallon of E-10 fuel I've burned, the only problem I've had with E-10 was when picked up a load of water from a service station. Removed the sending unit and siphoned the free water off the bottom. The Racor filters took care of the rest.

 

[Brewman61]

Re: Ethanol problem solved?

Those water absorbtion devices were popular when I was into snowmobiling (A small boat with a track and skis that runs on snow, for those in the land of eternal boating), they were suspended in the gas tank and you just put new ones in periodically. They reportedly worked rather well. I never used them but knew many who did.

 

[Beefer]

Re: Ethanol problem solved?

Gasoline and ethanol can not separate without the presence of water. The ethanol molecules attach themselves to the water molecules and combined weight of the ethanol/water molecule causes them to fall out of solution and fall to the bottom as an ethanol/water mixture.

Your standard water/ fuel separator has no problem removing this solution of water and ethanol. The problem is that the ethanol is used as a source of octane in the gasoline. Now all of a sudden your feeding your motor lower octane fuel that it is designed to run on. This is the reason why some say to run a higher than normal octane in an attempt to mitigate the drop in octane should phase separation occur.

FWIW: In the 4 years, and probably 4,000 gallon of E-10 fuel I've burned, the only problem I've had with E-10 was when picked up a load of water from a service station. Removed the sending unit and siphoned the free water off the bottom. The Racor filters took care of the rest.

Yes, 0.5% water will cause the phase separation, which really isn't much. I'm thinking moisture due to condensation causing this is a typical tank.

Didn't know about the octane issue. Octane Boost as a fix?

What size filter do you use? My currently installed Racor is a 10m, and I was thinking maybe going down to something smaller as a precaution.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol problem solved?

Yes, 0.5% water will cause the phase separation, which really isn't much. I'm thinking moisture due to condensation causing this is a typical tank.

Didn't know about the octane issue. Octane Boost as a fix?

What size filter do you use? My currently installed Racor is a 10m, and I was thinking maybe going down to something smaller as a precaution.

It's a known fact that you can not condensate enough water from the atmosphere to cause phase. The only way you can induce phase is via an introduction of free water.

The amount of water required to cause phase is determined by the fuel temperature. The 0.5% value is for fuels @ 60? F. At 80? the fuel has the capacity to hold upwards of 0.7% by volume. At 0? your down to 0.3% by volume

The real danger is in the fall when temperatures start dropping quickly and the fuel temperature falls with it. The fuel is going to shed the excess moisture possibly causing phase in the process.

Water is not ?filtered? out of the fuel. Coalescing filters separate water from the fuel using the difference in density. The fuel comes into the filter and is forced thru a series of chambers. The heavier water molecules fall to the bottom and the ?clean? fuel is sucked back out thru a ?paper filter? that is treated to minimize the amount of water that can pass through it. Using a 2 micron filter will remove the smaller particulate but will have no affect on how the filter handles water.

As for the octane, keep your fuel system clean and dry and you don't have to worry about it. The only time I had a problem with seperation I topped off the tank with 93 octane and never looked back.

FWIW: I use a 10 micron Racor filters