Ethanol Related Issues

[Sea Rider]

Being reading lately much information regarding E related problems with inboard Mercruiser, Volvo, GM engines, the recommendations : use fuel stabilizer if boat will not be used soon, if possible burn the amount filled on your tank, buy a water separator filter assy. Ethanol atracts water in humid areas like marinas specially in winter as you cannot close air vents completely on these inboard boats tanks. Needs ventilation for pressure relief issues inside tank specially in summer.

Are these recommendations 100% applicable to 2/4 stroke outboards too ? If you cannot get fuel stabilizers in your area, would proper tightening tank cap and air vent screw prevent water absorption by hygroscopic ethanol in humid areas if tank leftovers are left sitting for some time ? If so, will need to run carb bowl and gas hose completely dry and if possible consume all gas bought for that outing. Re fill leftovers or fill with fresh gas for next trip.

Asking this because you guys are well experienced, soon will have E-8 in all our high grade gasolines, as usual somebody's high profit bussiness, the norm, let's place all users in same sack... This advisor seems to explains it all.

Happy Boating

 

[relocyo]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Try googling "phase seperation" I think that crap turns to water one way or the other, I think the only way to really combat it is using a fuel stabilizer in FRESH gas, as it wont help old already phased gas, or like you said running the engine dry out of gas unfortunately, using seafoam for winterization may help with that proccess... Good luck!

 

[JB]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Use StaBil for ethanol, do not store for longer than a few days.

When you winterize, drain the fuel tank and burn it in your car.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Use StaBil for ethanol, do not store for longer than a few days.

When you winterize, drain the fuel tank and burn it in your car.

Thanks, but we do not have Stabil around here, what is the longest days you can store to use again to work properly without any stabilization whatsoever for outboards use ? cannot burn in our cars, it's a 2 strokes gas/oil mix issue, will smoke heavily for sure. Outboard is used all year round.

Happy Boating

 

[BassHunter0123]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

im sure there is MANY stores that sell it online that will **** it to you

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Get over this nonsense about not storing E-10 for more than a few days. Good grief folks, every car on the planet would be dead on the street if that were true. My boat sits in may garage for six months of the year with SeaFoam treated ethanol blended fuel and it runs just fine in the spring as do most of the other boats that get layed up for the winter here in the tundra. Fact is E-10 DOES NOT go bad in a few days, or weeks or even months. I've used the stuff since 1997. You also DO NOT need to run the engine dry of fuel. That's a great way to dry out the carbs and if the engine happens to be a carbed two stroke, for the carbs to get gummed up from the oil residue that passes through them from the pre-mix or oil injection systems. If E-10 is as bad as it is made out to be, E-85 must then be nearly 10 times as bad huh? Wrong again. I run E-85 almost exclusively in my flex fuel car and as long as the price is 40 cents/gallon cheaper than regular it pays for me to do so. Again, if ethanol fuel went bad in a few days my trusty Impala should have died 60,000 miles ago as it can sit for a couple of weeks without being run.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Thanks for the replies so far, to center on the idea, how many estimated days can 2 stroke fresh gas/ethanol E8/oil mix be kept inside a plastic outbord tank with cap and air valve well closed tight, bear in mind that no stabilizers will be used because we don't have them down here, were're talking about E8, that is 8% ethanol, 92% unleaded high octane gasoline. Probably not a big issue to worry about, will have to experiment, any remote ideas ?

Happy Boating

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

old tanks with crud you bet the ethanol will dissolve all the gums and turn the fuel brown.
only advantage to E10 is it cleans out you tank.
E10 gives you worse mileage.
Cars are not comparable to boats, car fuel system with fuel injection is sealed, unless the pressure rises or falls 3 psi, then the gas cap valve opens temporarily.
Our boats with carbs have ancient fuel system designs, I doubt fuel injected boats are better since the tank must be freely vented by codes .
IMO, boats should be run as low as possible and tanks stored dry.

http://clubsearay.com/archive/index.php/t-23523.html

 

[reddogg]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

My solution is to use up the gas and not let it sit in your tank. If your going out for a day, buy what you will need for the day. Also keep your fuel system as clean as you can, replace filters on a regular schedule. The only problems with ethanol fuel is that it will clean all the crud out of your fuel sys and that crud can wind up in your carbs, so keep your sys clean. If left in the tank to long (imo a month or more) it needs to be burned off or pumped out. Doing it this way I don't have fuel related problem and I dont waste much gas as I only buy what I'm going to use.

Red

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

old tanks with crud you bet the ethanol will dissolve all the gums and turn the fuel brown.
only advantage to E10 is it cleans out you tank.
E10 gives you worse mileage.
Cars are not comparable to boats, car fuel system with fuel injection is sealed, unless the pressure rises or falls 3 psi, then the gas cap valve opens temporarily.
Our boats with carbs have ancient fuel system designs, I doubt fuel injected boats are better since the tank must be freely vented by codes .
IMO, boats should be run as low as possible and tanks stored dry.

http://clubsearay.com/archive/index.php/t-23523.html

Wrong. Cars have a pressure/vacuum system. If they didn't the tanks would explode or cave in with the rise and fall of temperatures.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Thanks, but we do not have Stabil around here, what is the longest days you can store to use again to work properly without any stabilization whatsoever for outboards use ? cannot burn in our cars, it's a 2 strokes gas/oil mix issue, will smoke heavily for sure. Outboard is used all year round.

Happy Boating

You seem to keep asking the same question. It will NOT go bad in a few days -- or a month -- especially with only 8% ethanol content. Rather than taking our advice, why not check with other boaters in your area to see what their experiece is. Or if you happen to get to Brazil or know someone there, check with them. There country runs on ethanol.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Wrong. Cars have a pressure/vacuum system. If they didn't the tanks would explode or cave in with the rise and fall of temperatures.

didnt I say that? The cap relives the vacuum or pressure once an thresh-hold is passed.
IMO, boats fuel systems should work similarly.
Some people love E10, I hate it.
But perhaps to me, not worth my time to respond

just seeing how E10 is being reacted to in Germany now.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,757812,00.html

translate using google chrome
http://www.parteidervernunft.de/node/1649
E10-waste gasoline: Expensive and poor

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?14573-NO-to-E10

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

http://chemicallygreen.com/inconvient-truth-about-ethanol/

?Another misconception is that ethanol is green. In fact, corn production depends on huge amounts of fossil fuel ? not just the diesel needed to plow fields and transport crops, but also the vast quantities of natural gas used to produce fertilizers. Runoff from industrial-scale cornfields also silts up the Mississippi River and creates a vast dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico every summer. What?s more, when corn ethanol is burned in vehicles, it is as dirty as conventional gasoline and does little to solve global warming: E85 reduces carbon dioxide emissions by a modest fifteen percent at best, while fueling the destruction of tropical forests.

effect on food price means way up , which means people who live a marginal existance will starve as we take food and turn it into fuel
a little more for a rich westerner means not so much, but most people in the world are poor and cant afford to see food prices go up.

Thanks in large part to the ethanol craze, the price of beef, poultry and pork in the United States rose more than three percent during the first five months of last year. In some parts of the country, hog farmers now find it cheaper to fatten their animals on trail mix, French fries and chocolate bars. And since America provides two-thirds of all global corn exports, the impact is being felt around the world. In Mexico, tortilla prices have jumped sixty percent, leading to food riots. In Europe, butter prices have spiked forty percent, and pork prices in China are up twenty percent. By 2025, according to Runge and Senauer, rising food prices caused by the demand for ethanol and other biofuels could cause as many as 600 million more people to go hungry worldwide. (These are figures from last year and the figures for increased food prices are going to be much higher in 2008).

 

[Tig]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Thanks, but we do not have Stabil around here, what is the longest days you can store to use again to work properly without any stabilization whatsoever for outboards use ? cannot burn in our cars, it's a 2 strokes gas/oil mix issue, will smoke heavily for sure. Outboard is used all year round.

I'll go a few months without any problems. I do like to top up with fresh fuel when I can.
At the end of the season I use left over mixed gas to top up my old truck or lawn mowers. I just did this with fuel (50:1) that was over two years old and the truck was bone dry at the time. No smell or smoke.

 

[jasonbailey]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

I put stabilizer in my tanks at every fill up. At the end of the season I pump what is left in the tanks and burn in my car. Usually only 6-8 gallons. I have a carbed 2 stroke Merc, at the beginning of the last two seasons it has started up with no problems. Usually on the 2 crank. Now that I've bragged about it, the engine gods will smack me down and require a carb rebuild.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

You seem to keep asking the same question. It will NOT go bad in a few days -- or a month -- especially with only 8% ethanol content. Rather than taking our advice, why not check with other boaters in your area to see what their experiece is. Or if you happen to get to Brazil or know someone there, check with them. There country runs on ethanol.

Sorry for the misinterpretation to a punctual inquiry, nobody down here (Lima.Peru) knows a thing regarding ehtanol for boating activities, the stuff has only 7 days available in our market, the Company who sells this ecological stuff says contaminates less, it's a commercial propaganda issue for high profit as usual, doesn't care about problems to all boater down here that will start to experiment soon. Know some Brazilian boaters who speaks awfull things about their gasolines, they run much higher ethanol contents, lot's of trouble with carbs, rubber components and performance...

Happy Boating

 

[SolingSailor]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

I don't consider myself an expert on this topic, but here's my true experience using E-10, which has been all that's available in CA for years. I run a 1988 4 hp evinrude, oil mixed 50:1. After about 6 months, I pour whatever is left in the tank, usually 3 gallons or so, directly into my car. Never had a problem. Also, I have forgotten to do this sometimes, and then run the outboard engine on fuel which is over one year old. Never had a problem. I understand that I may have a problem which I am unaware of, but my point is that the engine has always run OK on this fuel. So my experience seems to be somewhat contrary to some others' advice on this topic. I think maybe you are overthinking this issue.

 

[Star]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Thank you Silvertip once again for your technical assesment of the many fairytails about E10 created problems. The marine shops have even told me that it trashes your engine 3 to 4 years of heavey use. I guess it leads to increased equipment sales!!!! I know that if you don't maintain you fuel system E10 will make more trouble for you and it does eat rubber parts.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Being completely new to theoretical ethanol related issues just found a good practical examples of what ethanol does to outboard engines which was the initial inquiry, left ethanol E 10 fuel diaphragm was never run bowl or fuel pump dry, right non ethanol was always run bowl and fuel pump dry. Can see that left one is completey rigid, bit cracked, heavily fabric marked compared to other which is still fexible and in opt conditions for using a bit more. So definitely if you don't run engine frequently and let gas sit on carb for unlimited time, be prepared to service more often including more spare parts change wether the job is done by you or have to pay a mechanic.

Personally will not have ethanol related problems because always run fuel hose, pump and carb bowl completely dry after outing while flushing engine untill drops dead, generally buy the amount of fresh gas for that outing and top with fresh fuel on top small leftovers from previous outing for the next one.

But boaters that have big boats, doesn't know a thing about ethanol and uses their toys just for summer and are kept at marinas with 9 months old non stabilized gasoline under severe humid environments till next summer, will surely experiment some kind of new problems compared to same standar gasoline used

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Personally will not have ethanol related problems because always run fuel hose, pump and carb bowl completely dry after outing while flushing engine untill drops dead, generally buy the amount of fresh gas for that outing and top with fresh fuel on top small leftovers from previous outing for the next one.


Happy Boating

If you mean running it until stops as a method to drain the fuel system....it doesn't, it just lowers the level of fuel in the carb. You need to physically drain each of those components to get all of the fuel out.

I can out-do slivertip on how long I have used the product, it was in the early 90's (20 years ago) when it started being used here. To hear some people's rant's you would think no motor could run more than a week on that stuff and survive. The thought of E10 related problems rarely crosses my mind, nor does it come up much in conversation with my boating friends. Is it great stuff, no, but get used to it, it's here to stay.