Ethanol Related Issues

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Practical method : If you disconnect hose from tank and with a suitable tool, pencil, whatever, you prees the small ball or pin inside tank connector hose to remain open and let air in, will have pump sucking all fuel leftovers on the line, next pump leftovers, when engine is about to die of fuel starvation, pull/close choke and throttle arm near wot until nearly dies, repeat procedure untill engine dies completey and will not start again, that way will have last drop of fuel burned by engine as stated by Tohatsu Guru.

Have not removed bowl screw after that procedure, will check to take the nail out to check if wether complete empty or with small gas remains. Anyway, I always boat frequently all year long, no issues whatsoever with minimum gas leftovers inside carb bowl. Works near perfection on 2 strokes single carbed engines, don't know about multicarbs.

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

That method gets more of the fuel out, but its still not empty, plus it's a lot of work.

My method is to turn off the key when I'm done using the motor...then I turn the key to start when I want to use it again. This doesn?t change if it's not going to be started for 6 minutes or 6 months. That's my E10 method of survival, so far it has worked for 20 years.

I would use a stabilizer if I knew I wasn't going to use it for a long time, but I rarely do it.

What it means is that there are many methods that work, my method works, your method works, so do many others. Many just make people feel good.

 

[Tig]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Doesn't this just remind you of the mayhem that resulted from banning lead in gasoline.
I've run e10 in my 4 strokes since it first appeared around 90. I've been running it in 2 stroke snowmobiles, chainsaws, weed whackers and outboards for some time now and there has been no change in reliability. Believe it or not fuel pumps and lines failed long before e10 was even dreamed of.
The chemistry of ethanol and plastic/rubber is also no mystery. Some manufacturers simply use crappy components that fail as they should. 21 years after e10 hit the street there is no excuse for this.
SeaRider, with all due respect, that "advisory" is little more than a sales pitch for a lot of standard boating items.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

SeaRider, with all due respect, that "advisory" is little more than a sales pitch for a lot of standard boating items.

Well you guys are the boating experts, just came across that advisory as sometimes buy thnigs from them, asume you mean sales pitch for water separator systems, filters and gas stabilizers, right ? As said before ethanol mixed gasolines is new to us and some expert recommendations will do good on what to expect or not to expect at all, a matter of trial on very humid coastal areas as ours specially in winter to avoid or minimize water separation phase effects.

With respect on running carb dry on previous post answer, definitely different methods works better for different people , but if you have the right tool to keep tank connector open, spare time to attend hose water flush after boating while sipping some cold beers, then welcome on board... Anyway 2 stroke engine boaters will agree it's better to run carb dry if letting engine sitting with mixed gasoline for long periods of time.

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

People do have different methods that seem to work, but running the carb until it stops is a feel good practice because not all of the fuel is removed, actually draining the carb would be of value though. But what it comes down to is an extreme over reaction to E10 when people feel they need to add things to the fuel and jump through hoops to run it, or that every fuel line and gasket in the carb is now toast. When the truth is the motors have been designed to run on E10 for about 20 years. They hear horror stories of fuel left for two days and it's now full of water and is junk. Most of this is hyped buy the additive companies with scare tactics and people that see normal fuel issues and attribute them to now using E10.

Areas new to E10 do have issues related to old crud in the tanks, it can plug things up as the E10 cleans it out, plus if MTBE is still being used (it's banned in many sates) the two products can form a goo when water is introduced which can cause problems.

The real issue is phase separation and nothing can really stop it other than adding more ethanol to the fuel, this just allows more water to be absorbed before it actually separates.

This has been discussed here many times and I've added quotes from people that work at the refineries and deliver the gas that dispel some of the myths and misinformation.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

I find it somewhat hilarious how we have acquiesced to the 10% ethanol and now the battle is drawn over 15% ethanol.
10% is now dandy but 15%, whoa, what a minute, that is horrible.
So a little bit more ethanol is a major problem, 10% ethanol or 15%, the difference is not meaningful, at 15% the fuel system effects or damages, IF they are going to occur, will just be realized sooner than at 10%.

Solving Ethanol-Gas Problems
15% Ethanol approved
Modern gasoline is a blend containing up to 10% ethanol alcohol. Last October the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approved a 50% increase in the maximum
amount of ethanol that can be sold at your local gas station (increased from 10% to
15% of the gasoline). At this time, E-15, the new formulation, is only approved for
2007 and newer cars and trucks (so-called Flex-Fuel vehicles). Expect a transition to
some type of a dual-fuel system, where there will be both E-15 and E-10 available.
E-10 only, not E-15, for your boat!
As this catalog goes to press, there are many unknowns concerning E-15 and boat
fuel. We do not know how and when this new formulation will be offered for sale, or if
it will ever be sold in your local marina. We do know that you don?t want it in your ma-
rine engine, as the experts are unanimous on the subject. According to Mercury Ma-
rine: ?Fuel containing higher proportions of ethanol is not compatible with many fuel
system and engine components and, if mistakenly used, will cause irreversible dam-
age to these components that will lead to engine failure and potential safety risks.? At
this early date, we can only warn you about the possibility of confusion and the risk of
accidentally filling your boat?s gas tank with E-15.:facepalm:
To keep your engine and fuel system safe:
? Do not put any fuel containing more than 10% ethanol (E-10) in your boat?s fuel
tank or outboard motor (EPA?s decision only applies to 2007 and newer highway ve-
hicles), unless your owner?s manual specifically states otherwise.
? Check the pump to be sure that it is dispensing E-10. Some gas pumps at local gas
stations may offer both E-10 and E-15, or have blender pumps that dispense mid-level
ethanol fuels for Flex-Fuel automobiles. Higher ethanol fuel (E-15) may be less ex-
pensive than regular (E-10) fuel, but putting E-15 into an E-10 approved vessel could
cause engine and fuel system damage.
? Many boaters who trailer their boats (about 90% of recreational boat owners in the
U.S.) fill their boat?s gas tank and/or gasoline can when they fill up their tow vehicle.
Be sure that the gas can is filled only with E-10 fuel. This will require a change of pro-
cedure when you fill up the new Silverado or Tundra truck, and then automatically
top-up the tank for the wakeboard boat or fill the gas can for the Evinrude

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Actually concentration makes a big difference.

I not only sell resin to the marine industry, but also to the corrosion market, this market builds large chemical tanks, pipe, ducting, etc.
We have charts that show which resins can handle various chemicals and it's listed by the % of the chemical in solution.

In this case moving to 15% would be a 50% increase in the amount of ethanol in the fuel, the current components in the system are designed for 10%, 50% more "could" shorten their service life significantly.

Some people don't remember that even prior to ethanol, fuel lines became brittle and cracked, carbs plugged up, and water got into the fuel. Ethanol did make some of these issues potentially more of a problem, but as has been said before, every problem experienced is now blamed on E10 whether it has anything to do with it or not.

Don't confuse this response with me being an advocate for blended fuel, I'm not, it's just that currently E10 is not the evil monster depicted in many posts.

What affect does drinking 50% more alcohol have on you?

 

[Tig]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
This is brief and seeming comprehensive explanation of phase separation in fuel. (complete with citations) It's well worth reading but the conclusion is, to cause phase separation you would have to pour water into your tank because atmospheric absorbsion rates are too slow.
Based on the article I would speculate that if you had occasional water in the fuel problems before e10 then they may go away, since e10 can handle 25 times more contamination. But if they were severe, such as rain or bilge water getting into your fuel then they will be masked and you will be in jeopardy of the perils of phase separation which are also described quite well in the linked document.
All this makes sense to me since I have not had to use gas line antifreeze since I switched to e10 around 1990. Before that it was a winter ritual or the gas would slosh the frost off the tank walls and clog the sump stranding you a few miles down the road.
Which reminds me of another winter ritual. I used to change the fuel lines on my snowmobiles every few years. I'm more than 10 years overdue on that task.

 

[hooks1]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

All the thoughts presented so far in the thread make it clear that few of us know enough to offer more than opinions. And we probably are better informed than Joe Sixpack! What's a guy to do? If the thoughts and facts are all rolled together it appears that ethanol is not a problem until it gets exposed to water. Does anyone know of products that can extract ethanol-bound water from the fuel mix? About a million years ago I worked in a lab that used a resin (molecular sieves) that would bind water and leave the hydrocarbons "dry". If there is a filter made of such material that could be installed in the fuel line (maybe after the water separating filter) the impact on the engine could be minimized. The problems with the tank and lines would remain but those are maintenance issues anyway. Thoughts????

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Removing the ethanol bound water is easy, it sinks to the bottom where the pick up tube can suck it up into the motor, this removes it from the tank. The problem is if you remove the ethanol you lower the octane rating of the fuel...not good.

Adding more ethanol does help prevent phase separation, because the added ethanol will allow more water to be absorbed before it takes place.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Stupid question :

Gas stations have fuel filters for filtering mostly debris/impurities from their tanks, do they need to have water separator filters along the gas line to remove water from inside tank while expending E mixed gasolines ?

Happy Boating

 

[Tig]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

I do recall that when E10 hit the streets around 1990 they did add water separators to the gas pumps. They were external and conspicuous, so I asked a gas station owner about them.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Very nice to know, a real crime selling E gasolines without filters, local E problems have just started, thanks.

Happy Boating

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

http://www.economist.com/node/10766882
E10 is not green, not environmentally friendly and not good gasoline.

Ethanol and water
Don't mix
New reasons to be suspicious of ethanol
Feb 28th 2008 | MIAMI | from the print edition

OFFICIALS in Tampa, Florida, got a surprise recently when a local firm building the state's first ethanol-production factory put in a request for 400,000 gallons (1.5m litres) a day of city water. The request by US Envirofuels would make the facility one of the city's top ten water consumers overnight, and the company plans to double its size. Florida is suffering from a prolonged drought. Rivers and lakes are at record lows and residents wonder where the extra water will come from.

They are not alone. A backlash against the federally financed biofuels boom is growing around the country, and ?water could be the Achilles heel? of ethanol, said a report by the Minneapolis-based Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy.

and a cause for food price hikes which hurts the poor which is most of the world.
food for fuel great idea? It takes land which used to grow food crops and uses that land for fuel. A better idea is algae based oil using seawater and desert lands.

This is controversial for several reasons. There are doubts about how green ethanol really is (some say the production process uses almost as much energy as it produces). Some argue that using farmland for ethanol pushes up food prices internationally (world wheat prices rose 25% this week alone, perhaps as a side-effect of America's ethanol programme).

 

[Tig]

Re: Ethanol Related Issues

Very nice to know, a real crime selling E gasolines without filters, local E problems have just started, thanks.

Happy Boating

Don't forget, that was 20 years ago. Those particular gas pumps have long been replaced with new ones. The filters may be internal on the newer models. Also I'm unclear as to whether phase separated water/eth would be trapped in such a filter, so perhaps they were eliminated later. I looked online quickly and I don't see such a filter.
I'd be more concerned that E10 in an old storage tank would dissolve varnish. That could clog fuel filters quickly for the first while.
You will find that all problems will be blamed on E10. So take them with a grain of salt.
The major benefit of ethanol as a fuel is that it is not imported from hostile areas of the world.

 

[Sea Rider]

Adding more E into the fire

Adding more E into the fire

Have very clear all pro/con issues related to E outboard problems, as a homework completely repaired a small portable engine, a new and fresh carb kit was placed when carb was rebuilt. The engine was used just for 1 hour, a fuel leak was detected at the pump base due to a crack, the pump was disassembled and to my complete horror new gaskets curled once removed from base. Definitely these new fuel gaskets will be balooning soon, the left one has white fabric deterioration, was completely black when installed. If this issue was found using E-8 gasolines, can't imagine what E-10 will do. E you stink!! Is it a norm while using E mixed gasolines to change carb parts more frequently due to premature deterioration ?

Unhappy Boating

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Re: Adding more E into the fire

I have several briggs motors with steel fuel tanks and a little flopy rubber fuel pump diaphragm.
That little fuel pump diaphram in a couple days completely disintegrates in the ethanol gas.
And the steel tanks rust.
the fuel quickly phase separates due to the metal fuel cap not sealing out the air. what I mean before I could let them sit for months and they are ok, no about a month later the fuel sitting in the tank cant be used.

I have 2 generators with fuel tanks on top. Surprisingly, they started up and ran ok after a year of old gas sitting in them.
On those they have a tank shut off valve and I run the carbs dry, cant do that with the briggs, the carb is bolted to the tank.
I also added small fuel filters.
.
The newer small engines seem better, plastic tanks and plastic tank caps. On one the aluminum fuel bowl developed pin holes from the e10.
And those bowl gaskets swell up so can be tough to put back together. I did a test, I dropped a steel dowel in the plastic tank of one of the lawn mowers. In 2 months it was heavily rusted and the engine carb and tank filter clogged with rust.

You do realize the e10 is blended into the delivery trucks, the oil companies refuse to transport e10 thru the oil pipes because e10 is highly corrosive.

This briggs design here is completely unworkable with e10 unless you drain out the tank and are prepared to keep buying new rubber pump diaphragm. in photo you can see the pump diaphram side plate bolts to carb. Also that plate is critical to the fuel pump, e10 ate one on mine corroding the sealing port. And the steel tanks internally rust fiercely, there are 2 pickup tubes, fuel pump uses long tube to pick up fuel and then pumps into internal well that short pickup tube feeds carb, That internal steel well develops tust hols and motor wont run.

The only way to make these work and last long like they should is to manually phase separate the gas before putting it into these motors.

 

[sdowney717]

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Ethanol-Loving Bacteria Accelerate Cracking of Pipeline Steels
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110803102856.htm

can you transport e10 in gasoline pipe lines? most say no some say yes.
http://econintersect.com/b2evolution/blog1.php/2011/08/04/ethanol-corrodes-gas-pipelines

At DOD Corrosion Conference 2011 this week in La Quinta, Calif., NIST researchers presented new experimental evidence that bacteria that feed on ethanol and produce acid boosted fatigue crack growth rates by at least 25 times the levels occuring in air alone.

interesting that they discover bacteria eating ethanol IN THE GAS.

a greener view says ship it in the pipes! I predict those that do ship it in the pipes will have to replace-repair the pipes and wont keep shipping it in the pipes..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-dinneen/shipping-ethanol-on-gasol_b_150645.html
time will tell the story.

perhaps the bacteria Acetobacter aceti is eating up your fuel and creating acids in the engine. As the ethanol levels increase in fuel, more bacteria will just make more acids and create more troubles.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Re: Adding more E into the fire

E-85 is trucked because at that concentration it is corrosive to steel. That is why flex fuel vehicles have stainless fuel systems. I guess the fact that my chain saws, weed whips, lawn mowers and yes, my boats sit all winter (thats 5 months up here in the tundra) with "treated" E-10 in the tank and they all start and run just fine. I must be doing something wrong huh?

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Re: Adding more E into the fire

Fully coincide that thin diaphragams will desintegrate or balloon in short time, how fast on outboards use, who knows, probably will need to buy a complete fuel pump kit and take it along while boating and change it in the event that engine dies because of E. We should sue both Governments for selling crap gasohol for outboard use or pass them the bill

Happy Boating