Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

[girlboatie]

Hi all you boaters,

Does anyone know how I would find out if my boat has fiberglas stringers. It also is supposed to have a Kevlar hull. True or false? How to tell?
Thanks!

girlboatie

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

I haven?t been able to find if your 96 model has fiberglass stringers. I do not think it has the Kevlar strip down the hull centerline. Looks like that was incorporated later. Googling Campion I?ve found a number of 80?s models for sale that claims floor and stringers recently rebuilt, indicating structural wood construction up to somewhere around the late 80s, give or take.

From Trailer Boat 1998, Allante 565,
?Campion hand-builds its hulls on the award-winning Advanced Pressure Expansion (APEX) Lift System that uses technology it claims actually expands the high pressure zones in a V-bottom boat. The benefits include faster planing, less wetted surface and a more stable platform at high speeds, the company says. Each craft is built using a rigid stringer system, fiberglassed in place using triaxial material. Each hull also has a steel reinforced mould with up to 10 extra layers of fiberglass added in the building process for extra strength and stability, Campion says.?

From Boating Life 2003, Explorer 602i,
?Kevlar laminate hull and fiberglass stringer system make this a boat that will last.?

From Marine News 2007, Explorer 6021 SC,
?And the quality of these Canadian fiberglass boats is more than just skin-deep. To give you some idea, the hulls are reinforced down their center line with Kevlar cloth. This bulletproof material ensures Campions are better equipped to take the odd collision with a floating log. The Campion hull construction is actually so good the company covers it with a limited lifetime guarantee. Obviously they are pretty confident about their product!?

Question is, What material is used to make up the ?Rigid stringer system? in 1998. Could be wood, could be fiberglass. I would think, however, if it was fiberglass, it would be stated. I'm guessing wood stringers encapusalated in fiberglass in 1998, (but only a guess). It was definitely fiberglass by 2003. Not a whole lot of manufacturers were building 100% wood free boats in the 90s, and nowhere have I found anything regarding transom material. Campion may still be using wood ? In any event from what I've read, they do seem to be of significantly higher quality construction than typical.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

It's probably a wood transom even nor-tech and outer limits use wood transoms and their pushing a million bucks each.

It's not a price thing it's cause wood works best.

Let me state that I don't know anything about your exact brand and I'm not an expert on them.

As for the kevlar don't believe the hype about being bullet proof cause it's not. It's most likely one sheet running down the boat in between layers of glass.

Kevlar is a great reinforcement fabric for boat building it is only used by those building real nice boats.

It's only bullet proof if it's made like a bullet proof vest (which no boat is) Sure does make for some cool marketing B.S. though.

As for no other wood are you sure there is no balsa core in the hull?

Dyvincel (foam core) is really only used for hull sides and decks most manufactures still use balsa for the bottom of the hull.

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Not sure what advantage wood offers other than low cost and ease of fabrication. I do know replacing one transom was more than enough for me. I stick to wood-free nowadays - Lots of quality names to choose from.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

"Not sure what advantage wood offers other than low cost and ease of fabrication"

It's stronger.

Handles the stress more.

Sure if you've only got a runabout check out the alternatives.

I'm just pointing out that the guys with no budget use wood.

If someone has over $50,000 to spend on paint then your not worried about lower cost or ease of manufacture.

Granted I don't have a 50' Nor tech super cat but I'm right now redoing my transom and I'm using wood just like all the offshore race guys do.

They make Seacast not 3 minutes from my house and I wouldn't use it.

 

[girlboatie]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

I haven?t been able to find if your 96 model has fiberglass stringers. I do not think it has the Kevlar strip down the hull centerline. Looks like that was incorporated later. Googling Campion I?ve found a number of 80?s models for sale that claims floor and stringers recently rebuilt, indicating structural wood construction up to somewhere around the late 80s, give or take.

From Trailer Boat 1998, Allante 565,
?Campion hand-builds its hulls on the award-winning Advanced Pressure Expansion (APEX) Lift System that uses technology it claims actually expands the high pressure zones in a V-bottom boat. The benefits include faster planing, less wetted surface and a more stable platform at high speeds, the company says. Each craft is built using a rigid stringer system, fiberglassed in place using triaxial material. Each hull also has a steel reinforced mould with up to 10 extra layers of fiberglass added in the building process for extra strength and stability, Campion says.?

From Boating Life 2003, Explorer 602i,
?Kevlar laminate hull and fiberglass stringer system make this a boat that will last.?

From Marine News 2007, Explorer 6021 SC,
?And the quality of these Canadian fiberglass boats is more than just skin-deep. To give you some idea, the hulls are reinforced down their center line with Kevlar cloth. This bulletproof material ensures Campions are better equipped to take the odd collision with a floating log. The Campion hull construction is actually so good the company covers it with a limited lifetime guarantee. Obviously they are pretty confident about their product!?

Question is, What material is used to make up the ?Rigid stringer system? in 1998. Could be wood, could be fiberglass. I would think, however, if it was fiberglass, it would be stated. I'm guessing wood stringers encapusalated in fiberglass in 1998, (but only a guess). It was definitely fiberglass by 2003. Not a whole lot of manufacturers were building 100% wood free boats in the 90s, and nowhere have I found anything regarding transom material. Campion may still be using wood ? In any event from what I've read, they do seem to be of significantly higher quality construction than typical.

Thanks for all of your info, Jevery. I wonder if calling the factory would be a solution? I will try & find some info via that route rather than calling a Campion salesman. Also (I'm new to this) isn't there a technical book, like Chilton's for cars, that would be specific for each boat/year? If I ever have to tear into this boat I'd sure like to know what I'm getting into.

girlboatie

 

[jonesg]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

I've read the seacast hype and can't see what the big deal is, or why the expense, it strikes me as just resin with chopped fiber.

I can make a stronger mix with resin and kevlar pulp, probably cheaper than seacash .

I'm thinking to do my transom like that with a ply core sunk into it, ply absorbs vibration. Anything will better than the potting soil I have for a transom core right now.

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

I wonder if calling the factory would be a solution? I will try & find some info via that route rather than calling a Campion salesman. Also (I'm new to this) isn't there a technical book, like Chilton's for cars, that would be specific for each boat/year? If I ever have to tear into this boat I'd sure like to know what I'm getting into.

These boats will have an online following somewhere, you just have to find them and coax the information from them. Sorry, no manuals for boats available. Pull some covers or panels and poke around. You'll be suprised how much of the structure you can see.

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

It's not a price thing it's cause wood works best.

Plywood, as a boat building material, is tried and true. Properties are well known with relatively light weight and decent strength to weight ratio, but these properties are dependent on the protection of a covering of fiberglass, epoxy, or similar to form a laminate. This is needed both for strength, as wood is relatively soft, and for protection from water intrusion. Plywood durability / longevity is acceptable only with good design, construction technique, and regular maintenance. Therein lies the problem. Poor design, execution of construction, or neglect can result in a rotten boat within 7 ? 10 years, give or take. One small imperfection, crack, or failed seal and wood will begin to absorb water and swell. Swelling causes further delamination that accelerates the process until eventually the entire piece is rotten. The trend in quality trailerable boats is clearly toward wood-free construction. The reason is obviously not because it?s cheaper or easier to build a wood-free boat. It?s because people, like myself, have owned a boat with rotted structure and learned an expensive lesson. Since my lesson, I?ve only owned wood-free boats. My current boat, a Ranger, utilizes ?pultruded? fiberglass structural members. A material they claim is stiffer, stronger, more durable, and has better screw retention than wood. Not surprisingly, the Pultrusion Industry Council publishes data that bolsters Ranger?s claims.
http://www.acmanet.org/pic/pultrusion/timber.htm

Here?s some Ranger propaganda,
Pultruded fiberglass is a patented Ranger Boats exclusive. No other boat builder has it. Pultrusion is a high tech process that takes 40 to 70 sheets of various fiberglass types from the big rack and runs it under pressure through a heated dye-resin bath. The result is an incredibly strong substance that is 75% fiberglass and only 25% resin. Pultruded fiberglass is so dense, they need to cut it with a 55,000-psi water saw. Blades build up heat too fast. You end up with excellent screw retention too. Just predrill the holes.
Pultruded fiberglass won?t rot or weaken ever. It?s like having an armored boat ? all part of Ranger?s Zone-Tempered Fiberglass Layup that makes for a top quality boat.

From what I can tell it?s about 1-1/2 times stiffer, over 10 times harder, and not dependent on the protection of other materials to maintain these properties.

Yes, many builders continue to use plywood for structural components. The reasons, I believe, are a combination of tradition, predictable results, availability, acceptability, cost, and ease of fabrication. I certainly do not believe it?s because plywood is structurally superior to Ranger?s pultruded fiberglass or to the best structural materials used by the other wood-free manufacturers.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Bummer they don't list plywood as a comparison or really it would be plywood laminated with vynilester resin and glass cause then the numbers would mean something. Unfortunately dimensional lumber isn't relevant to boats.

Stuff looks cool though, I'm not sure how pretty much solid glass could weigh less does that make sense to you?

I think I said that it would be fine for a small boat but there is a reason why a plywood transom is still the choice of the big dogs. Maybe it has to do with vibration like Jonesg mentioned.

If you install a plywood transom correctly the chances of it failing are very slim, lets face it most of are older boats weren't built with anywhere near as good resin and manufacturing was not what it is now.

If you use epoxy you can forget about it. As long as you don't go poking holes in it without sealing them it will out live you.

Hey girlboatie what did you find out about your boat so far?

Is it a cored hull?

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Sorry to hijack the thread girlboatie, I feel so bad I E-mailed your question to Campion. Will let you know if they respond.

I'm not sure how pretty much solid glass could weigh less does that make sense to you?

Never said it was light. It?s a lot heavier than wood, but a lot less material is required. Apparently it?s strong enough that a fairly compact beam assembly is adequate to distribute engine weight and forces to the stringer system with enough reliability that Ranger warranties the structure for life.

No point in extending reinforcing material completely across the transom, no need for additional laminate layers, (other than bonding to hull), to build strength, and no need to encapsulate or seal anything. Vibration isn?t a problem in my boat and doesn?t seem to be an issue for other wood-free boats from what I can tell. I?m sure many won?t agree, but it just seems like better engineering to me.

Looking at the properties of Divinycell H or Renicell E
http://www.diabgroup.com/americas/u_literature/u_pdf_files/u_ds_pdf/H_DS_U.pdf
http://www.diabgroup.com/americas/u_literature/u_pdf_files/u_ds_pdf/Renicell_ds.pdf

And Marine Ply
http://www.worldpanel.com/Plywood Data1.pdf

I still can?t make sense of why a manufacturer wouldn?t chose a material that?s about half the weight, of sufficient strength, and impervious to moisture, unless unit cost, (i.e. profit), possibly has something to do with it.
I do, however, know why replacing a rotten transom with more plywood is the best choice, because I made that choice myself. It?s cheapest, It?s easiest, It?s gonna be plenty strong, and It?s gonna last long enough.

There does seems to be some Big Dogs that use advanced core technology
http://www.diabgroup.com/americas/u_markets/u_marine/u_mar_o.html#
As well as (FRP), fiberglass reinforced plastics, technology.
http://www.marinecomposites.com/PDF_Files/A_Recreational_Applications.pdf

 

[dingbat]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

I still can?t make sense of why a manufacturer wouldn?t chose a material that?s about half the weight, of sufficient strength, and impervious to moisture, unless unit cost, (i.e. profit), possibly has something to do with it.

Weight is your friend when it comes to ride quality. The heavier the boat the better the ride. Grady, Parker, Regulator, and a variety of upper tier builders still use wood in their construction.

From a boat builder on another site.

I do work for a boat manufacturer who has been using the same material since 1996, and to our knowledge, we have never had a claim filed with them on one of our boats. Glass over wood construction is still the best composite setup in many people's opinion (including mine). It is tried and tested, and as others here have said, if done properly, it works great. That is not to say that no wood setups are bad either-they are not.

The problem I have with them is that many companies have chosen them not because they are superior, but merely so they have the ability to scream "no wood, no wood" at every chance they get. It is more about marketing than boatbuilding. Fiberglass liner type setups seen on many boats today look wonderful, but they create their own issues. They have to be built in a separate mold, and cure separately from the hull. Even if they are put into the hull while it is still in the mold, the two do not cure together, which means you get what is called "secondary bonding" which is not anywhere close to being as strong as a primary bond. Some of these issues have been addressed by using methacrylates (bonding adhesives) to connect these liners to the hull, but it is very difficult to do so given the lack of access to some areas under these liners.

Foam cored stringers allow the same primary bond construction of the stringer system, so that is a plus. The negative is that they generally cannot be setup for attachment points for running hoses, cables, wiring harnesses, etc. If you find a boat with these type stringers that has cable ties or clamps that fall off after awhile, the reason is that they are only screwed into a thin layer of glass cloth saturated with resin. Without a wood or aluminum backing the screws will vibrate out. That leaves the wood stringers which have the downside of years of rot problems in the industry.

Much like initial years of problems with corrosion on sterndrives, this will take forever to fade. Think of it this way-the core of the stringer is there initially to be a form. A way to make the glass cloth and resin conform to the shape you want. Wood has the advantage of being able to attach to it, and provides some additional stiffness. It also makes installing inboard engines much easier for builders who do so. The bottom line is that there are always different ways to do things. Think about this-ever see a Stamas at a boat show? They still use spruce stringers according to their literature. The key is how they seal them. If a builder can take the time to really detail their lamination to extreme standards, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Using Greenwood allows them a margin of error if an employee misses a spot or does not seal an area perfectly, which certainly does happen in production situations. There is no perfect method, like there is no perfect boat for every application. There are over 4000 boat building companies in the US, no two of whom do everything exactly the same.

I may add that "no wood" systems including Nida core (in my experience) seem to encourage a lack of below decks finish and craftsmanship. Molded stiffeners and abutments are left with gross edges and exposed core because "it cant rot, so why bother". Side hull and deck fittings with open core. In a particular builder I can think of, while inspecting their workmanship on every occasion I get the strong message that the materials were chosen to save on labor. I don't mean to generalize or make sweeping statements, (but) I can say for sure with one builder.

 

[jevery]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Seems like a fairly biased individual?s opinion. Here?s something relevant that?s a little more objective.

Wood vs. Composite:
Which is better--wood or composite construction?
Here's what boatbuilders say.
Trailer Boats April, 2003

Link to Article, (Microsoft Word doc format)
http://www.box.net/shared/a7ex7ugw08

What I interpret from this article,

* The movement to wood-free construction is market driven, many potential customers walk away when wood construction is mentioned.
* Cost is the primary factor preventing more manufacturers from eliminating wood.
* Manufactures view the weight of wood as a disadvantage
* Wood as a structural material in boats will become increasingly rare, but will always have a following.
* Wood in boat transoms is a good material only if
1. Craftsmanship and materials are of adequate quality
2. Transom is properly maintained
(potential for rot is present in any transom containing structural wood)
* Composite transoms can be a lighter, stronger, and decay-free alternative if
1. Craftsmanship and materials are of adequate quality

A partial list of manufacturers that have eliminated wood from their boats, (may include a few inaccuracies), Allison, Angler, Aquasport, Avocet, Bass Cat, Bertram, Bryant, Bumble Bee, Carver, Caravelle, Carolina Skiff, Champion, Cobalt, Defiance, Dolphin, Ebbtide, Four Winns, Glastron, Hatteras, Hydra-Sports, Interceptor, Key Largo, Key West, Larson, Marquis, Mastercraft, Nautic Star, Nitro, Panga Marine, Pro Craft, Pro Sports, Progression Offshore, ProKat, Ranger, Rinell, Robalo, Sea Chaser, Sea Hunt, Sea King, Sea Quest, Sea Ray, Seaswirl, Skeeter, Stratos, Steiger, Craft, Triumph, Triton, VIP, Wellcraft, World Cat
I?m sure there?s many more to add, these came up under searches of ?wood free boats? and VEC construction

 

[girlboatie]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Bummer they don't list plywood as a comparison or really it would be plywood laminated with vynilester resin and glass cause then the numbers would mean something. Unfortunately dimensional lumber isn't relevant to boats.

Stuff looks cool though, I'm not sure how pretty much solid glass could weigh less does that make sense to you?

I think I said that it would be fine for a small boat but there is a reason why a plywood transom is still the choice of the big dogs. Maybe it has to do with vibration like Jonesg mentioned.

If you install a plywood transom correctly the chances of it failing are very slim, lets face it most of are older boats weren't built with anywhere near as good resin and manufacturing was not what it is now.

If you use epoxy you can forget about it. As long as you don't go poking holes in it without sealing them it will out live you.

Hey girlboatie what did you find out about your boat so far?

Is it a cored hull?

Hey NSBCraig,

Here is what Campion emailed back to me about my 1996 Victoria 627:

The stringers were wood wrapped in fiberglass. To access the full length of the stringers you would either need to remove the deck or cut out the floor. The hull is not reinforced with Kevlar. Yes the transom is made of wood. Any structure in the hull in that model year would be wood.

Regards

Jason Spanier
CampionMarine


So I guess that's my answer and anybody else who has a Campion of that year. We aren't having any problem with the boat but we did want to know what we had. Also I like to be aware of what to look for BEFORE it becomes a big problem...the boat is 12 years old. Should I pull up some carpeting and see what's going on underneath?

What does delamination look like inside/outside? And no, I don't think I have a cored hull but I ain't no expert.

girlboatie

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Dude you started a real cool thread we're covering all kind of boat building stuff this is great.

Oh I absolutely understand wanting to know how yours is built, that's how I found out mine is cored on the bottom with balsa. Which you can see through the glass after I removed the carpet (there's a pattern to it (squares)). I also found the rotten core (thanks whoever screwed the 2x4's down through to the core) from it's black color.

I don't know it's really up to you wether or not you want to start getting into it and do some exploring.

If the boats in nice shape and you don't think there is a problem, then probably no just leave it alone.

The important part is you have a lot better knowledge of what you have.

Then again just pulling up some carpet isn't really a lot of work.

As for de-lamination outside you probably would have already spotted it would be my guess inside I'm not positive maybe some of the other guys will jump in here, but I think you'd see some kind of separation between the layers of glass or was it made with a chop gun (old school style)?


Hey dingbat I hear ya but I'm into the lighter the better type of boats. They go real fast but fish horribly.

Hey jevery is that that stuff those knees are made of? Kind of looks like aluminum. Oh and I think I already mention Divinycell even though I probably spelled it wrong it's really only used for the upper hull, deck and walls etc. Oh and I can't read that article I can't do word docs on my imac. I'll try and find it in another format.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Hey dingbat I hear ya but I'm into the lighter the better type of boats. They go real fast but fish horribly.

You don?t have to sacrifice ride quality to go fast. Just ask Reggie Fountain.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

It's not the going fast ride quality I was talking about.

It was the while fishing quality, light boats bob like well bobbers when your not going or going slow like while fishing.

Heavy boats are a lot nicer to fish in the ocean on.

Did I really type that quote, I didn't mean better just lighter.

This pic is me and my friend cleaning up my brothers boat after playing (wave jumping) in 20' plus roller and then doing a run down to the space center on the I.C.W. Once you pass Oakhill you can run wide open.

Oh and don't bother Reggie give Steve Stepp a call.

 

[girlboatie]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Is that what a cored hull looks like? Square patterns? Hmm. Now I am curious to know what my hull is. Maybe I'll pull up just a tiny bit of carpet.

Our boat is a relatively heavy boat for it's size (20 feet); it weighs in over 4000 lbs and from what I am reading cored hulls sound lighter.

Anyone got a Campion 627 Victoria out there?

As for delamination you are probably correct. We would have seen evidence of a soft spot somewhere when we were doing bottom paint. I think.

Thanks, this is an interesting thread and I"m learning a lot! I did hear from a friend who is researching buying a boat that some years, boat makers made thinner hulls than in other years to save $$. Of course, boat makers don't advertise this & I'm sure most of you guys are aware of this.

We just had our boat on an overnight trip to an island several hours away. Gotta say for a 20' boat with 2 people & 2 dogs it was real nice. Even had hot tea for breakfast from our alcohol stove, and the berth is extra cushy from all the foam egg crate mattresses I've stuffed in there

Ahhh, there's nothing better than boating........

girlboatie (And I ain't a dude - maybe a dudette!)

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Oops! sorry bout the dude.

Glad your enjoying your boat.

 

[oops!]

Re: Fiberglas stringers? Kevlar?

Hi all you boaters,

Does anyone know how I would find out if my boat has fiberglas stringers. It also is supposed to have a Kevlar hull. True or false? How to tell?
Thanks!

girlboatie

totally false....!!!!!!


the kevlar reinforced hull in campion boats is actually a small one or two inch patch of kevlar, glassed to the transom........

its a sales pitch......campion is manufactured in my city....the local boat mechanics and the glass reps all know about it......the people dont....

your stringers are glass over wood.....

kevelar, and graphite are not uasually used in production boat building.
the reason why is, graphite and kevelar are are not impervious to water. when they get penetrated, they hold the water. then the water freezes, and the expansion fractures the material. after the material is fractured, it will fail catistrophicaly.
think of the race boats that just seem to "explode" or the graphite fishing rod that just "shatters".....or for that fact...the broken hockey sticks laying around the ice at an nhl game.

this is because the composite material has been compromised, and microscopic fractures have occured....then failure is just a step away.

have no fear, that campion is just standard polyester resin...only an inch or two is kevelar......if if was all kevelar.....wayne gretzky migh not have been able to affoard the boat.

cheers
oops