Formula 272 Outdrive Corrosion?

[FormulaCanada]

Hey all...first post here. I'm looking at buying a boat in my area (Georgian Bay area in Canada). I don't know much about the history of the boat so it could very well have come from a salt water life. Maybe maybe not.

Anyway, the out drive looks oddly corroded. Seems like the bottom skeg portion of the outdrive is corroded. Looks to me like the zinc is missing on that outdrive.

I haven't gone to look at the boat, maybe this or next weekend, but the outdrives have me second guessing even going to look.

It's a 1987 Formula 272, Alpha drives, 350 small blocks, pretty decent shape overall. Conversion would make it $10,200USD. Hour meter says 192hrs...seems unbelievable to me...but who knows.

What do you all think? Is this priced fairly?

Seems to be a limit here for the images. Please take a look at my thread over at hull truth (sorry, for the link)...don't have an image editor at work to resize.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/727800-formula-272-outdrive-corrosion.html#b

Rob

 

[alldodge]

Howdy

Yes zincs are missing and only 192 hours I would not believe. My guess is the meter was replaced just ask why.
The price is about average retail, so start there and go down if you find issues like the drives. Zincs a cheap but if the boat sits on the trailer it doesn't need them. Just look it over or have someone who knows more about boats to do so

 

[FormulaCanada]

Right, but it that lower end considered bad shape or is it something you think is repairable?

 

[tpenfield]

Those outdrives do not look bad at all considering the age of the boat (28+ years). It is hard to say if the outdrives have been refinished at some point, but I would assume that they have and maybe the starboard outdrive was done more recently. I would assume it has been run in the ocean (so salt water) to some extent, unless you know the boat's history in detail.

The hour meter may have been changed or re-set if the engines have been rebuilt or replaced. That is the first year (1987) of the curved windshield go-fast Formulas. they also transitioned to the 2-piece construction in that time-frame as well, but I'm not sure if in 1987 that transition was complete. The boat sits very low in the stern with the 2 engines . . . the 350's should help in that regard versus some of the boats have the 454's.

Price is OK. Keep in mind that the 272's of a couple years newer have the Bravo1 outdrives instead of the Alphas, but the prices may be in the $15K range for those boats. The boat is a total wave crusher . . . :thumb: . . . Not sure about the interior, since no pics of it are shown, but look for either the swivel buckets (LS Model) or the 'Bolster' seats (SR-1 model) SR-1 is better than LS for that type of boat.

the 'repairing' of the outdrive is pretty much a prep and paint, no dig deal, at least from what can be seen in the pics.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Hey, thanks for the reply tpenfield. It is in fact a Formula F272 SR1. The interior is fairly nice from what I've seen, I haven't seen it in person yet, but plan to go the weekend of the 23rd...hopefully still there at that time. I know the bravo's are in the newer ones, no doubt because the horsepower was increased. I read about the Alphas and they seem fine as long as the HP is kept under 300. Not that I'm running full out all the time, but is there a major difference in performance to say an 87 vs an 88 or 89?

On another forum someone recommended JB weld to fill the pits (if there are any), is that a sound solution? Sounded fine to me.

Rob

 

[tpenfield]

The hull on those boats stayed the same from the early 1980's all the way to the early 1990's, so you should not see any difference with boats just a couple years apart in that range. 1987 was the first year of the 'Silent Thunder' swim platform, which adds another 2 feet to the boat's overall length. So, the boat is like a 29 footer of today's vintage. Some folks take the swim platforms off, but I have always liked them. If you are not aware of the Silent Thunder internals, you can probably Google some info. It gives a nice rich sound at idle, but is fairly quiet at cruising speeds.

I had a Bravo1 outdrive with quite a few pits from lack of anodes by a previous owner. I filled them with epoxy/filer, sort of like what JB Weld will do. They were fine.

One thing to be concerned with is the bearing carrier that the prop shaft goes through . . . the corrosion that is at the 'hub' area of the outdrive could extend into the bearing carrier. If it is not too bad, then it should be fine. If it is more advanced, then it could lead to needing a barrier carrier replacement. So, you will have to take a look and judge for yourself. Bring a small/powerful flashlight with you when you see the boat so you can shine light into dark places for better inspection, and use a smartphone to take pictures for really tough access areas. I had to replace the bearing carriers on my Twin Bravo 3's last year, because the previous corrosion got the best of them.

I see that you have posted to a number of sites for input (quite a few of us iBoaters hang out on those sites too). The boat will be far from perfect, but it is a 28+ year old boat offered at a fairly low price. I'd like to buy one of those 272's myself (someday) for the 'windy' days when the bay whips up.

The key weakness in boats like that ( Deep-V Hulls) is that the fuel bay and the bulkhead fore and aft of the fuel tank can absorb moisture, which leads to structural problems. So, you will want to pay attention to the main bulkhead in the engine compartment to see if that look like it has absorbed water or has signs of rot. I replaced the bulkhead on my 1991 F-242 a while back because of that sort of problem.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Nice reply. So much info, thank you!

Ya, I too like the swim platform...it rounds out the shape of the boat nicely. No intention of removing it.

Good to know that the lower unit is hopefully repairable if needed...at a minimum a cleaning and painting.

Not sure where the bearing carrier is...would I be able to see this with the flashlight through the end/rear of the props?

Haha, yes, as I said, I'm new on all these forums, so I wasn't really sure where to post, my brother recommended this one because he said he got a lot of help from here with a boat he restored a few summers ago.

Wow...I was like where are these bulkheads...did a google...found your topic of your restore! Great job! Can I ask how much it cost to do all the repairs?

So without me cutting a hole in the bulkheads (and keep in mind I'm in Canada and everything is frozen here right now), how do I test the bulkheads? I'm thinking that if it's confetti like yours or even beginning to rot out it would sound kinda hollow and wobbly (if that's a sound). And if it's good it would feel solid, and hard when you tap or knock it...is that right? You said for and aft of the gas tank...is it easy to check in front of the gas tank (the floor hinges up or something)?

Rob

 

[FormulaCanada]

No Title

A few photos of the interior

 

[tpenfield]

You should be able to see the bearing carrier through the prop hub. Check on the 'mercruiserparts dot com' site for part diagrams of the Alpha outdrives and you can become more familiar with the parts, etc.

There is a lot of extra stainless steel on those outdrives, because of the drive showers and the tie-bar, so more than the standard corrosion protection would be needed.

When I had to repair the structure of my 242, at first I was a bit naive about the structure of boats and what can happen to them over time. Thanks to this site, I caught-on quickly and realized that I may have big problems that would only get worse. It cost me about $2K to fix the boat myself . . . $1K for the fuel tank and about $1K for the fiberglass, wood, 2-part foam, and supplies.

Signs of trouble that I noticed, but was not keenly aware at the time were:

(1) The starboard engine mount stringer developed an inward bow in it
(2) The main bulkhead had a couple of small areas at the corners where exposed wood seemed deteriorated
(3) Cracks in the fiberglass developed at the bulkhead where it meets the engine mount stringers . . . that was the wake-up call.

Freezing temps can expose moisture and rot as easily as it can hide it. With the structure being fiberglass over a wood core, if the wood is wet and freezes, it will usually crack the fiberglass somewhere. So, any cracking of fiberglass in the engine compartment can be a sign of moisture, even though the frost will make everything 'feel' solid.

Another thing to look for would be brown water that has seeped from any holes or imperfections in the structure. Brown = rot in many cases.

A third thing to look for would be on the exterior of the hull during the day. If the temperatures are reasonably warm during the day, you may notice condensation on the outside / bottom of the hull in the area where the fuel is located. If the boat is 'sweating' during the day, it could mean that the foam surrounding the fuel tank has become saturated with water.

So, those are a few things to look for, other folks may have some tips as well.

The transoms on the Formulas are isolated from the stringers, at least they were on my 1991 boat, so you can have bad bulkhead and stringers while the transom can be OK.

The forward bulkhead can be seen by looking under the step that leads into the cuddy cabin. There is a drain that leads from a small bilge in the cuddy, then underneath the fuel tank, all the way to the main bilge in the engine bay.

I would imagine that the boat will still be there next weekend, since it is in the middle of winter. Feel free to post any pictures of things that you take when you look at it.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Thanks again for your reply,

Okay, yeah that exactly what I meant by the "end of the prop" lol, I'll definitely take a flashlight and check out the parts scheme for the unit.

Very good point on the freezing of the water/moisture in the bulkheads/stringers/transom. Again, makes perfect sense, if it's moist or wet enough that would definitely expand and bow out or at worst crack the gel coat/fiberglass covering the core. Good tip on the brown water too; I guess it could be brown from just be stagnate, but I can judge that I hope (there should be any water in there now as it's shrinked).

So is the original foam closed cell and it just deteriorates over time? I saw yours two part epoxy foam or something...it looked pretty nice.

The step in the cuddy comes up or am I looking through a drain hole to look at the forward bulkhead?

Will definitely post pictures. If I decide to purchase the boat I'd like to be able to put money down to secure it and do more detailed investigation in the spring. But I doubt he's gonna go for that. Like at the very least finalize a deal and say pending on the further investigation of bulkheads, stringers and transom. ...I'm not sure that's acceptable or not...seems reasonable to me as the buyer...



Rob

 

[tpenfield]

Formula uses a 2-part closed cell urethane foam, which is either 4 or 8 lb density. So, in the early years of a boat's life, and as long as the boat remains dry, it resists water absorption. Water can and does seep into the foam in between the microscopic spaces between the 'bubbles' of the foam. Gravity takes it slowly to the lowest point in the hull structure, which is usually right along the keel in front of the bulkhead.

Over the years, with freezing cycles, etc. some of the foam 'bubbles' break down providing more space for the water. After many years of this action the foam in the lower portions of the structure end up acting more like open cell foam than its original state of closed cell foam. The moisture held in the foam can then migrate into the wood structure of a boat. If the wood is well encapsulated in fiberglass, then the flow of moisture is a lot slower, but water does flow through fiberglass at a 'molecular' rate.

In my conversations with the folks at Formula, their tech rep. told me that the foam (and the fuel tank) really add a lot of strength to the boat. Since the boats are rough-water, offshore style boats, they need lots and lots of strength. So, any repair work on a boat like that should include re-foaming the areas that need it.

Lesser built boats tend to have more un-encapsulated wood, often in places that cannot be seen. so, the water migration into the structure can be a lot faster.

The step in the cuddy should 'flip' up for better access.

As far as the boat goes, I would expect the seller to want you to take it or leave it in short order. It is an older boat and the money involved is small compared to many other boats.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Great explanation, I hope I can remember all these tips when I go view the boat haha. Will definitely remember the flashlight! I impatiently wait for the 23rd of January. I will keep you posted with the results or any other questions which come to mind ...which I'm sure they will ...thanks again for all the help so far.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Just an update, I didn't get to see it this weekend, probably most likely next weekend. Will post any questions this weekend.

R

 

[imp0ster]

I'd also disconnect the drive bar and see if you can move the drives back and forth without anything else moving. Steering slop can mean a lot of work. Not always but usually at least the ring if not the steering arm and pin.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Although I myself don't know how to do that...would someone actually let you disconnect their drive bar? Sounds like a solid idea, but I don't think I'd let some dude take apart my drive...

 

[imp0ster]

If you're buying the boat I don't see why someone would have that much of an issue disconnecting the tie bar. It's probably a single bolt that goes through the eye of each end the bar or you can remove the bracket off the drive usually with 4 bolts.

It's a major part of a boat inspection,.

 

[tpenfield]

There are other ways of checking the steering system, so unfastening things won't be needed. I would not expect a seller to allow dis-assembly, nor would a surveyor do things like that.

The point about checking the steering is well taken, it is just the method used that may bid of question.

 

[Mikeopsycho]

That's probably something that could be checked during the mechanical inspection after a price, with subjects, is agreed upon.

 

[FormulaCanada]

Oh...I mis-understood. I thought he meant the DRIVESHAFT...haha. Right, the stainless bar...still as Ted says, I doubt they'd let me unbolt that stuff.

Ted, what are the other ways to test the steering?


Rob

 

[tpenfield]

You are looking for the steering arm(s) (inside engine compartment) to move before the outdrive(s) itself moves. Would take some extra people to easily check, since you have to look both inside and outside of the boat.

Again, keep in mind that the boat, being 28+ years old and only $10K is probably not gong to be perfect. You'll have to decide if the issues found are manageable.

You going to see it this weekend?