Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethanol grows...

[DracoDan]

I bought a 1999 Formula 330 Sun Sport back in April. This is my very first boat and while I am really handy, this experience has been totally new to me and I feel like I know practically nothing, which scares me a bit, especially when things like my story below happens.

Long version:
So I went to take my parents and brother (both visiting from out of town) and my girlfriend out for a day on the boat yesterday (Sunday, June 6th). The boat (described below) had 5/8s of a tank of gas and with a 160G tank I figured we would have no problems at all, it had run great when I took it out three weeks prior. Both engines started up no problem, I let them warm up, and we headed out. A few hundred yards out of the marina I went to push the throttle up to get going at a decent speed, but I hit WOT without realizing it and saw the engines were both at only around 2200RPM! I wasn't sure what was going on but I have had drive trim issues so I decided to stop and make sure the trim was correct, though I doubted that this was the problem. After stopping the engines and verifying everything with the drives looked fine and we didn't have anything wrapped around the props, I went to start them again... This time however the engines would start and immediately die, both port and starboard did the same thing. After a few minutes of head scratching I decided that the gauges for fuel was probably reading wrong (I am in the process of replacing all gauges but I need new sending units). I called up BoatUS (thank god I bought that membership!) and they brought me some fuel so I could get back to the marina. The first 5 gallons didn't change anything but after the second 5 gallons and a few tries, the engines finally started! I started heading back to the marina and noticed that the engines were back firing, I just assumed it was from air in the fuel lines and kept it gonig at a slow speed. I went to fill up the tank expecting to need around 150 gallons, but the tank was full after only 60 gallons?! So I "ran out of fuel" with 90 gallons left?! The seller warned me about not letting the tank get below 1/4, but I was far away from that. After some work I convinced everyone that we would be fine. We hopped on the boat and went out and had a great evening, even went to a restaurant on the river for a great dinner (Tims Rivershore Restaurant on the potomac). I went easy on it after the earlier incident, but If I remember correctly I was at around 31 knots at roughly 3400rpm; The engines started every time and ran great all evening (no backfiring).

Now I was trying to figure out why my boat wouldn't run with ONLY 90 gallons of fuel, at first I assumed it was something specific to the boat, tanks, engine, etc. After a bit of reading I think my problem came from the garbage E10 fuel that the marina sells and separation of the fuel and ethenol.

Short version:
Gas gauge was showing 5/8 tank (tank is 160 gallons), boat was last used 3 weeks ago without incident.
Leave Marina and after getting out of no wake zone tried to throttle up but engines peaked at 2200 RPM.
Stopped boat and checked for debris or other problems.
Tried to start engines back and both of them would start and then die right away.
After adding 10 gallons (5 wasn't enough) the engines finally started.
During the short ride back to the marina the engines were back firing.
Added 60 gallons of gas before fuel ran out of the vent? (not sure if that's supposed to happen).
Boat ran perfect for the rest of the evening (started and stopped 3 seperate times and went about 12 miles total).

What I've learned is almost certainly the problem:
Gas/Ethenol seperation combined with water contaminating my fuel! Based on what I have read, it looks like this is a nasty problem that everyone is dealing with if they use ethenol fuel. My problem seems pretty light though (since the engines are actually able to run) so I'm trying to figure out if I need to take the drastic measures suggested all over the net to get my boat back to working order and prevent this issue in the future.

Questions:
Is the 150+ gallons of fuel currently in my tank completely garbage that needs to be disposed of?
How do I scrub my tank? It seem like it is mostly sealed.
Are there any parts I need to replace such as fuel filters?
Is Sta-bil - Marine the recommended fuel treatment to prevent this in the future?
How expensive is this likely to run me? (Yeah, I know boats are a money pit, lol)

The boat:
1999 Formula 330 Sun Sport
160G fuel tank (doesn't appear that it could be removed easily)
Dual Mercruiser 454CID/7.4L MPI engines with I think around 330 hours on each
Bravo III outdrives
I know the boat was winterized on the water by the previous owner for at least the past two winters.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Slide]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The ethanol itself won't cause your engine to run badly. It's more corrosive than gasoline, though, so if this is the first time your boat has had ethanol in it, it's probably dissolved some of the crud in your tank and lines and let it flow into the engine. Water is a possibility too; replace the fuel/water separators, run the tank through, and replace them again after you've resolved the problem.

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The second biggest problem with ethanol in the fuel is people letting it sit. Run the engines and burn the fuel. Keep thinning it out with fresh gasoline and marine fuel stabilizer. Don't let the gas sit.

 

[Philster]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Well... I think you are in the ballpark to concern yourself with fuel, but the issue at hand might not be phase separation, where the water completely separates from the gas. If you suck up water, then you'd keep sucking up water and nothing else, provided it was from ethanol phase separation.

If water gets into your ethanol, but not enough to phase separate it, it would actually burn away quite fine.

Maybe you have an issue with your pickups, or other issue that is masked by higher fuel levels. Maybe the fuel that was in there was varnishy, but not separated. Varnishy fuel has been an issue long before ethanol came around.

You can blame ethanol if one of these things happened:

>it corroded pieces that weren't resistant to it (not the case here)
>it separated and the entire bottom of the tank is water and some other ethanol junk (gas on top)

Possible it is the latter. Need more info and to have it sampled.

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The ethanol itself won't cause your engine to run badly. It's more corrosive than gasoline, though, so if this is the first time your boat has had ethanol in it, it's probably dissolved some of the crud in your tank and lines and let it flow into the engine. Water is a possibility too; replace the fuel/water separators, run the tank through, and replace them again after you've resolved the problem.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it doesn't sound like you really read through my post.

Yesterday was the first time I added fuel, all times prior to this were done by the previous owner. I am trying to get in contact with him now, but I am fairly certain he uses gas with up to 10% ethanol.

I'm not sure what you mean about running the tank through, I don't use the boat enoguh that I would expect to go through all 160 gallons any time soon. Because of this there would be more open air in the tank while I do so which means more moisture in the gas. Also, I predict that it will once again start having this issue when I get down to around 90 gallons remaining.

 

[laserbrn]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The part you've left off is how long you've owned the boat and how old the fuel is. Likely there is water in your fuel. Do your run a water seperator on your boat?

If the fuel is old, I'd drain it all out. I don't know how hold your fuel is or how bad, but I have an engine that's dead in my boat because it was run on old gas. I now have 6 stuck intake valves and 6 broken pushrods because he ran it on bad gas. It ran just fine on the bad gas that day, but never started again.

I just drained 60 gallons out of the tank and it was NOT clear. If it were my pee, I'd be chuggin' water bottles like a mother trying to rehydrate.

Something is up with your gas and I'd likely drain it and replace it, but you just added another 60 gallons in!

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The second biggest problem with ethanol in the fuel is people letting it sit. Run the engines and burn the fuel. Keep thinning it out with fresh gasoline and marine fuel stabilizer. Don't let the gas sit.

This was my initial idea but I wanted to be sure before I kept pumping good fuel into a tank of bad fuel that all needs to be thrown out. Is there a good way to test for sludge in the tank without opening it up?

 

[Philster]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

You need a sample from the bottom of the tank. You also need to pull your water-separating filter and take note of what is in it.

I don't know how in the heck this convo moves forward without at least the latter happening.

I'd be ticked, but I would resist the urge to let the hatred of ethanol distract me from eliminating variables to find the cause. You're going to delay resolution because of confirmation bias (anything you find you will shoehorn it into an ethanol issue).

Start digging and be objective. Don't dig with it predetermined it was ethanol, or you are going to spend a boat load of money based on wild arse guesses.

You could be sitting on perfectly good fuel. (Any decent marina should be able to get the fuel sample you need. Follow the fuel lines/rails and look for a filter, too)

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

The part you've left off is how long you've owned the boat and how old the fuel is. Likely there is water in your fuel. Do your run a water seperator on your boat?

If the fuel is old, I'd drain it all out. I don't know how hold your fuel is or how bad, but I have an engine that's dead in my boat because it was run on old gas. I now have 6 stuck intake valves and 6 broken pushrods because he ran it on bad gas. It ran just fine on the bad gas that day, but never started again.

I just drained 60 gallons out of the tank and it was NOT clear. If it were my pee, I'd be chuggin' water bottles like a mother trying to rehydrate.

Something is up with your gas and I'd likely drain it and replace it, but you just added another 60 gallons in!

Thanks for the reply, but my first sentence was "I bought a 1999 Formula 330 Sun Sport back in April."

The boat has been out a total of 6 times this year that I'm aware of (four by me and during the trial and the survey) so far without an issue until this last time. I would think if the fuel was REALLY bad that more damage would have been done by now, but maybe I've just been lucky. I'm thinking of siphoning a sample of the fuel to see what color it is and what kind of solids there are if any. I think the previous owner left the boat sitting last year with a 95% full tank and most likely a fuel stabilizer, I'm trying to get in contact with him now to confirm.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

I'm not sure what the backfiring indicates.

You might also have had an air leak in the lines or something stuck on the pick-up tube (notorious suspect--a piece of tin foil from an additive bottle).

Only running on full tank could mean a broken or punctured pick-up tube: if it's punctured at 3/4 level you won't pick up any fuel below that.

I think I'd start with the pick-up tube--check the bottom and the tube. Also work on the anti-syphon valve at the top of the assembly.

After the tank has rested for a while, stick a stiff tube in the hole from the pick-up, thumb it closed, remove a core sample, and release into a clear bottle--to see if there's water (from E-10 or other source) phase seperation (E-10) or general funkiness.

Maintaining fuel with stabilizer, using filters/seperators, keeping the tank full and using the gas all helps, but won't fix a tank full of sludge.

I also hate E-10, but it isn't a problem instantly; its effects kick in after several weeks at least. (Someone will post that E10 problems are a myth but that is not the opinion of mechanics in humid or temperate areas). Of course, you might have picked up bad gas; marina gas can have a lot of water in it, as well as funkiness if sales are slow.

I'm suspicious of your old gas that came in the boat but that doesn't explain your previous trip with no problems. But boats are sneaky like--they behave irrationally, inconsistently and illogically. Is that why they are "she's"?

Being an outboard guy I can't speak to what happens downstream from the tank.

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

You need a sample from the bottom of the tank. You also need to pull your water-separating filter and take note of what is in it.

I don't know how in the heck this convo moves forward without at least the latter happening.

I'd be ticked, but I would resist the urge to let the hatred of ethanol distract me from eliminating variables to find the cause. You're going to delay resolution because of confirmation bias (anything you find you will shoehorn into it being an ethanol issue).

Start digging and be objective. Don't dig with it predetermined it was ethanol, or you are going to spend a boat load of money based on wild arse guesses.

You could be sitting on perfectly good fuel.

Heh, thanks for both of your replies, you hit on some really good points and suggestions. I'm going to try getting down there this week to get a sample and check the filters, but I'm going to be out of town from Thursday to Sunday so it may not happen until next week.

The pick up lines sound like a very good possibility, I have no idea how I could check that though. I'm guessing I would have to open the tank? The comment the previous owner made during the sale to not let the boat get below 1/4 tank makes me think that this isn't a new problem but one that is getting worse.

BTW, my hatred of ethanol has much deeper roots than this. I have a Corvette (2006) that I track on a fairly regular basis and I can feel the difference between pure gas and 10% ethanol garbage. There are many other reasons, but if one thing is for sure it's that I won't start throwing money at this issue until I am very confident of what the problem is.

Thanks again!

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

I myself do not like ethanol, however there isnt enough evidence to be conclusive.

since you are replacing your gauges and the senders, pull fuel from the bottom of the fuel tank at that point. also, look in there with a flashlight. if you see sludge and separation, you can then pump it out and clean it at that point.

if you pull fuel, and its not water/sludge/etc., you may have perfectly good fuel.

you have twin 7.4's with MPI. the MPI engines are 3 bar fuel systems. what was your fuel pressure? anything less than 3 bar (45psi) will indicate a pump issue, or a flow issue.

I would also look at your pickup. it could possibly have a bad pickup where its not pulling fuel from the bottom, however mid-tank.

Fuel Stabilizers can only help for about 6 months.

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

I'm not sure what the backfiring indicates.

You might also have had an air leak in the lines or something stuck on the pick-up tube (notorious suspect--a piece of tin foil from an additive bottle).

Only running on full tank could mean a broken or punctured pick-up tube: if it's punctured at 3/4 level you won't pick up any fuel below that.

I think I'd start with the pick-up tube--check the bottom and the tube. Also work on the anti-syphon valve at the top of the assembly.

After the tank has rested for a while, stick a stiff tube in the hole from the pick-up, thumb it closed, remove a core sample, and release into a clear bottle--to see if there's water (from E-10 or other source) phase seperation (E-10) or general funkiness.

Maintaining fuel with stabilizer, using filters/seperators, keeping the tank full and using the gas all helps, but won't fix a tank full of sludge.

I also hate E-10, but it isn't a problem instantly; its effects kick in after several weeks at least. (Someone will post that E10 problems are a myth but that is not the opinion of mechanics in humid or temperate areas). Of course, you might have picked up bad gas; marina gas can have a lot of water in it, as well as funkiness if sales are slow.

I'm suspicious of your old gas that came in the boat but that doesn't explain your previous trip with no problems. But boats are sneaky like--they behave irrationally, inconsistently and illogically. Is that why they are "she's"?

Being an outboard guy I can't speak to what happens downstream from the tank.

Thanks, You hit on a lot of points that I have been thinking of, but your idea about the dibris in the tank is an interesting one. I think one thing I nee to find out is if my tank has 1 fuel pickup and pump for both engines or if they each have a picup and pump. Any advice on how to check this would be great, I can't think of a way to know without visually inspecting the insides of the tank. I'm trying to read on this stuff now but finding limited information.

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

I myself do not like ethanol, however there isnt enough evidence to be conclusive.

since you are replacing your gauges and the senders, pull fuel from the bottom of the fuel tank at that point. also, look in there with a flashlight. if you see sludge and separation, you can then pump it out and clean it at that point.

if you pull fuel, and its not water/sludge/etc., you may have perfectly good fuel.

you have twin 7.4's with MPI. the MPI engines are 3 bar fuel systems. what was your fuel pressure? anything less than 3 bar (45psi) will indicate a pump issue, or a flow issue.

I would also look at your pickup. it could possibly have a bad pickup where its not pulling fuel from the bottom, however mid-tank.

Fuel Stabilizers can only help for about 6 months.

Funny you should mention the "replacing the senders" part, I only recently realized that would be needed since I'm going from VDO (voltage based) to Teleflex (impedence based) gauges So far I've only done the tachometers but those use a pulse from the distributor so they are working great with no need for new senders.

when you say "if you see sludge and separation, you can then pump it out and clean it at that point" are you talking about cleaning the fuel somehow or cleaning the tank?

No clue on the fuel preasure at this point, But I doubt that would be spontaniously corrected by adding 10 gallons of fuel, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm considering building a fuel line insert with a preasure valve to check this in the future, can something like that be hooked in permanently?

 

[The Famous Grouse]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

You are making a vast number of assumptions based on what you think you've "learned" about ethanol. There are so many urban legends, half-truths, and outright wrong information about ethanol floating around out there, that the bottom line is the vast majority of problems that are blamed on ethanol actually have nothing to do with it.

Your experience with "ethanol garbage" in your Corvette is a classic example. It's nothing to do with ethanol being "garbage. The performance decline is due to the fact that when ethanol is burned, it releases less energy than pure gasoline. That, in itself, is proof of nothing, good, bad, or indifferent. You are simply observing a reality of chemistry.

As I've said often, most amateurs believe that water contamination of fuel was a problem that was brought about by ethanol. WRONG! In aviation, the battle against water contamination of fuel started the day after the first powered flight and continues to this day. And there has never been ethanol in av gas. Every pilot checks their fuel for contamination before every flight because water contamination can occur in many different ways, even in pure gasoline.

1. Right now you are speculating on the root cause of the problem. From reading your long version, all you actually know is that your engines are running poorly. That is a symptom, not a diagnosis.

2. If I'm reading your post correctly, this is only the second time you've used the boat in 3 weeks. Also, I'm not clear on how long the current load of fuel has been in the tanks (before you added fuel). Combined with the previous owner's comment about not running down past 1/4 of a tank, there are plenty of possibilities here and at most, ethanol may have played a small part.

My suggestion is to find the root cause and not to jump to wild conclusions that this or that is to blame based on internet speculation and armchair mechanical theory.

Here's what I'd do:

1. Have a professional mechanic pull several samples from the fuel tanks and test for water and particulate/foreign matter contamination.

2. Check the fuel filters and replace them. I would have the old filters dissected to see if they are clogged and if so to determine what they are clogged with.

3. Check the water separator(s) if you are so equipped. If you are not equipped with a separator, add that to your list because any boat of your size should certainly have them.

4. There could be dozens of other possible causes, so don't try to steer the conversation with your mechanic toward your foregone conclusion. Fuel pumps, air leaks, fuel pickups, filters, there are almost endless possibilities right now.

5. If there IS a significant quantity of water in the fuel or other particulate matter, you do NOT necessarily need to dump the fuel. A fuel service can "polish" the fuel by running it through a water separator and through filters. This will almost certainly be cheaper than dumping several hundred gallons of fuel.

You're obviously upset, but I think you need to work slowly and methodically toward a solution. Jumping to conclusions and playing the ethanol blame game could well end up costing you money and delaying you finding the real problem.

I am especially concerned about the previous owner's comment about not running down past 1/4 of a tank. To me, this indicates that he's had problems before and opens up the possibility that the problem you experienced is due to something that's been lying hidden for some time.


Grouse

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Don't keep adding good fuel on top of bad. That doesn't help the issue much, especially if the problem IS water contamination. Then you've just got 200 gallons of bad fuel instead of 160. I agree that ethanol content wouldn't be on the forefront of my concerns, but inspecting for water intrusion/filters/fuel pickups would be my first objective. Hell, I'd consider pumping out 20 gallons at a time and burning it in the daily driver rather than trying to run it through a more expensive marine engine. Then refill with fresh gasoline.

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Your experience with "ethanol garbage" in your Corvette is a classic example. It's nothing to do with ethanol being "garbage. The performance decline is due to the fact that when ethanol is burned, it releases less energy than pure gasoline. That, in itself, is proof of nothing, good, bad, or indifferent. You are simply observing a reality of chemistry.

Heh, that was my point exactly I consider anything that lowers my power output to be "garbage". Going to finish reading your reply now, just wanted to to say that!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

As a user of E10 since 1997 and E-85 since 2006 I think I have just a little experience with these fuels. While up here in the tundra we dont' have the high temps and humidity year around that the folks down south have, we also lay up our boats with E-10 in the tanks for six months of the year and they run just fine in the spring. Find out what the problem. And remember, there are just as many uninformed wrenches who call themselves mechanics as there are preparers of bad food who call themselves cooks. Just because they work for a boat dealer does not make them a fuel expert. Here is the long and short of ethanol (E-10). It is an excellent fuel system cleaner. A fuel system that has been neglected over the years will have the built up crud and gunk loosened and deposited in the fuel filters, and on older engines, it will degrade rubber fuel system parts. Your boat should have been built with ethanol tolerant parts but that still leaves the neglected fuel system. How is a fuel system neglected? Routine build up of condensation, routine use of contaminated fuel, failure to use a fuel system treatment, routinely leaving the boat sit for long periods with an empty or near empty tank. Every time you fuel you let small particles of dirt into the tank. Traveliing on dusty roads (actually any road) can bring dust into the vent system. A couple of boats ago I pulled the carbs on a 1995 Evinrude out of curiosity to see if they were suffering any ill effects from 100% E-10 use. Those carbs were absolutely spotless with no evidence whatsoever of E-10 sabotage. The motor was nine years old at the time. A dirty fuel system will cause the same problem you had but it may happen a little later in time. Crud is crud. E-10 didn't create it -- time does. E-10 is just cleaning up the mess for you. It is interesting however that one respondent indicates that by adding fresh fuel to contaminated fuel you somehow are able to get 200 gallons of fuel into a 160 gallon tank. See what just a little bit of misunderstanding does for you!

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Had to break this megapost down to reply to it clearly

You are making a vast number of assumptions based on what you think you've "learned" about ethanol. There are so many urban legends, half-truths, and outright wrong information about ethanol floating around out there, that the bottom line is the vast majority of problems that are blamed on ethanol actually have nothing to do with it.

The biggest thing I've learned is that there are several people here that will go on the offense because a new guy os willing to go and do some reading instead of posting "my baots broked wats wrong???????". I have worked in IT for many years and I will tell you I've seen some crazy ideas come from people about what could be the problem, but I still applaud for them to try finding the problem themselves instead of just asking how to fix it. Perhaps I could have chosen a better subject for my post that wouldn't have led you to some of the conclusions you have made. I am asking here because I DON'T simply read one post somewhere and run to dump my 160 gallon fuel tank. In fact many others have already made suggestions about the pick up lines and I pointed out that they had a great point and thanked them for their input.

Your experience with "ethanol garbage" in your Corvette is a classic example. It's nothing to do with ethanol being "garbage. The performance decline is due to the fact that when ethanol is burned, it releases less energy than pure gasoline. That, in itself, is proof of nothing, good, bad, or indifferent. You are simply observing a reality of chemistry.

Already replied to this above, but just because something is working as intended doesn't mean I have to like the use of it

As I've said often, most amateurs believe that water contamination of fuel was a problem that was brought about by ethanol. WRONG! In aviation, the battle against water contamination of fuel started the day after the first powered flight and continues to this day. And there has never been ethanol in av gas. Every pilot checks their fuel for contamination before every flight because water contamination can occur in many different ways, even in pure gasoline.

Actually, from what I've read ethanol can be HELPFUL since it creates an envelope around the water molocule that allows it to pass through the engine without harm. So if something happens that leads to water contamination ethanol may be your best friend . Personally? I still hate the stuff for many other reasons

1. Right now you are speculating on the root cause of the problem. From reading your long version, all you actually know is that your engines are running poorly. That is a symptom, not a diagnosis.

Again, the whole reason I posted was for verification or rebuttle to my HYPOTHESIS (speculation would mean I had little or no proof or reason to believe what I thought was the cause).

2. If I'm reading your post correctly, this is only the second time you've used the boat in 3 weeks. Also, I'm not clear on how long the current load of fuel has been in the tanks (before you added fuel). Combined with the previous owner's comment about not running down past 1/4 of a tank, there are plenty of possibilities here and at most, ethanol may have played a small part.

Still working on contacting the previous owner for clarification of this, but as I've said, I agree. It is correct that I wasn't able to take the boat out for three weeks, as much as I would like to use it every day, I am fairly young (29) and I am not married, so I have a ton of other responsibilities that compete for my time.

My suggestion is to find the root cause and not to jump to wild conclusions that this or that is to blame based on internet speculation and armchair mechanical theory.

Again, this is exactly why I posted here...

1. Have a professional mechanic pull several samples from the fuel tanks and test for water and particulate/foreign matter contamination.

I'll look into this, thanks for the suggestion

2. Check the fuel filters and replace them. I would have the old filters dissected to see if they are clogged and if so to determine what they are clogged with.

Great idea on the dissection, do you have any suggestions for filters? (brand, pore size, material, ect)

3. Check the water separator(s) if you are so equipped. If you are not equipped with a separator, add that to your list because any boat of your size should certainly have them.

Been reading about this and I will be looking further into it. If I don't have them already they will be added ASAP, thanks!

4. There could be dozens of other possible causes, so don't try to steer the conversation with your mechanic toward your foregone conclusion. Fuel pumps, air leaks, fuel pickups, filters, there are almost endless possibilities right now.

I'm really a DIY kind of guy so I'm going to rule out most options before I even get the boat to a mechanic. The only exception is if I have a fuel sample taken for testing, but then at that point I will be doing more than steering him...

5. If there IS a significant quantity of water in the fuel or other particulate matter, you do NOT necessarily need to dump the fuel. A fuel service can "polish" the fuel by running it through a water separator and through filters. This will almost certainly be cheaper than dumping several hundred gallons of fuel.

Bingo, this is something I really wanted to have clarified, now I just have to find a place that can do it for me. Is there a better term than "polish" for this? I don't want to sound like a TOTAL tard when I call up, lol

You're obviously upset, but I think you need to work slowly and methodically toward a solution. Jumping to conclusions and playing the ethanol blame game could well end up costing you money and delaying you finding the real problem.

damn, and you were doing so good... yeah, no, I'm not upset at this point really at all. We were able to still enjoy an evening on the boat, the only thing that had me upset previously was wasting a beautiful day by not getting to use the boat! I see this, like any other technical problem like a puzzle, and I enjoy solving puzzles. That's probably why I accell so well at my actual job (IT) and anything else that interested me. That doesn't mean this would hold true if I had two blown engines at the start of summer

I am especially concerned about the previous owner's comment about not running down past 1/4 of a tank. To me, this indicates that he's had problems before and opens up the possibility that the problem you experienced is due to something that's been lying hidden for some time.

Yeah, me too. Hope he tells me something useful. I know that he spent quite a bit of money maintaining the boat, I have the reciepts from last summer where he paid $15k to have the outdrives rebuilt and a dual mercathode system installed, OUCH!

Above all else, thanks for all the ideas, just don't jump to conclusions about me

 

[DracoDan]

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

Re: Fouled fuel? My hatred for all things ethenol grows...

As a user of E10 since 1997 and E-85 since 2006 I think I have just a little experience with these fuels. While up here in the tundra we dont' have the high temps and humidity year around that the folks down south have, we also lay up our boats with E-10 in the tanks for six months of the year and they run just fine in the spring. Find out what the problem. And remember, there are just as many uninformed wrenches who call themselves mechanics as there are preparers of bad food who call themselves cooks. Just because they work for a boat dealer does not make them a fuel expert. Here is the long and short of ethanol (E-10). It is an excellent fuel system cleaner. A fuel system that has been neglected over the years will have the built up crud and gunk loosened and deposited in the fuel filters, and on older engines, it will degrade rubber fuel system parts. Your boat should have been built with ethanol tolerant parts but that still leaves the neglected fuel system. How is a fuel system neglected? Routine build up of condensation, routine use of contaminated fuel, failure to use a fuel system treatment, routinely leaving the boat sit for long periods with an empty or near empty tank. Every time you fuel you let small particles of dirt into the tank. Traveliing on dusty roads (actually any road) can bring dust into the vent system. A couple of boats ago I pulled the carbs on a 1995 Evinrude out of curiosity to see if they were suffering any ill effects from 100% E-10 use. Those carbs were absolutely spotless with no evidence whatsoever of E-10 sabotage. The motor was nine years old at the time. A dirty fuel system will cause the same problem you had but it may happen a little later in time. Crud is crud. E-10 didn't create it -- time does. E-10 is just cleaning up the mess for you. It is interesting however that one respondent indicates that by adding fresh fuel to contaminated fuel you somehow are able to get 200 gallons of fuel into a 160 gallon tank. See what just a little bit of misunderstanding does for you!

ROFL at the last part, I read that earlier and had quite a smirk going :-D

I'm actually quite sure that the boat has used e10 for at least the last few years, assuming the last owner was using a stabilizer this might be even more reason to doubt the problem was caused by ethanol. As soon as I hear back I'll post an update.

What fuel stabilizer do you recommend? sta-bil marine? That's pretty much the only one I've seen suggested for boats.

Off topic: where exactly on the "tundra" do you live? I spent 9 years in Alaska, although I wasn't at all into boating back then.

Thanks!