Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

[jason32038]

Engine is very hard to turn by hand by flywheel with plugs in but turns easily without them in. Starter stays engaged without plugs in while cranking but when I crank the engine with the plugs in the starter bendix moves up and down engaging and disengaging while cranking. I chipped a couple of flywheel teeth already and have one chip on the bendix. Is the kick of the engine after the compression point enough to disengage the bendix then reengage? How do I get past this? I suspect after a slight break in it will be easier to turn over. The starter housing has all magnets and the armature should be good. Battery was charged a month or so ago and is a super start marine deep cycle battery. Cranks the hell out of it with plugs out. Any suggestions appreciated..thanks!

 

[jason32038]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Nevermind guys I just seen a recent similar thread with the same general problem. Ill lube the hell out of the engine and try again my compression must be way too high.

 

[fucawi]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

common problem when re building engines of all sorts ..starter was up to the job on the old worn engine but now ...?? First charged battery a month ago !!! not good enough.....is the battery any good ? ..cranking fast with the plugs out is no guide......First is are starter cables thick enough? I use 50 sq mm measure the battery volts when cranking and the starter volsts ....should be 11.5v min

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

With a good starter the bendix will engage and dis-engage right.
Make sure there is a bit of grease on the worm gear,
Just to be sure:take it apart and clean the insides.Replace the brushes or turn them upsidedown.
Load test the battery.

 

[JB]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Redo the battery cable connections, both ends of both cables. A tiny bit of hidden corrosion will do the same thing as a weak battery.

 

[fucawi]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

checking with a volteter the battery voltage at the lead terminals on the battery and then at the starter with it cranking is an easy way for an non tehnical person to see if he has a problem...difference between battery and starter should not exceed 0.5v and battery volts should not go below 11.5v

 

[jason32038]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Guys im positive the battery and starter and all connections are good. I took good care to disassemble the starter and clean. The battery date is May 2009. It was only used a few times summer 2009 and took a full charge within 30 minutes on a 6 amp charger last month. It had enough power to run the hell out of my air pump so I could pump up the trailer tire via jumper cables. I greased the magnet and armature with white lithium and wiped off. I even changed housings because the old starter I had..had a broken magnet. My question is...how do I loosten up the engine? Can I spray fogging oil while cranking or while rotating with the plugs out? I don't want to spray the premix in yet because I need to set static timing. Maybe I can static time with the plugs out. Seems like the starter turns the engine 800+ rpm with plugs out. I dont have a tach... If I try to crank any longer without loosening the engine up ill damage the starter gear and flywheel bad enough that I wont be able to use it. The starter is for sure not weak. The bendix gear moves up and down violently after the compression point which kicks the flywheel a bit which disengages the starter which is why it's chipping the flywheel and gear when it re-engages on the hard to turn flywheel. A weak starter or low charged battery wouldnt do that. Note...flywheel is very hard to turn due to compression with the plugs in...I have to turn it with a wrench..I used white lithium grease on all the bearings and sprayed pb blaster on them once assembled to loosen the grease up. Bendix moves very freely..is there a possibility that I can over lube it? Can I use a drill to rotate the engine and loosen her up a bit? Maybe i'll make a video tommorrow after work. HELP...thanks guys

 

[fucawi]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

what you are telling me about the battery tells me it has been neglected for 3 years....
Now read my lips .." Test dont Guess"....measure battery volts when cranking and same at starter

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

WOW! Lithium grease! Too much of a good thing. Remove the plugs and spray in pre-mix not fogging oil. Then yes, with a powerful enough drill and a socket adapter, and with ignition off, crank it until it loosens up. Spray through the carbs while turning it over with the drill. Don't bother to try to set the timing until the engine will crank properly with the plugs in.

Once she finally cranks normally, then use new plugs. Set the timing statically and see if she will fire.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Ok guys I found the real issue...the flywheel is wobbly. I tightened the hell out of it (150 ft lbs) and it's still wobbly. I believe this was the flywheel I got with the other powerhead. Ill try the other one in the shed and also replace the starter gear with the other one. Question...why is it so hard to loosen the nut on the starter gear? I was able to get it started after tightening the flywheel nut some more and she runs very good and pumps water good. I set the carbs to 1 1/2 turns out for break in and have the fuel oil mix at about 24:1..(2 gallons of fuel in small gas can and 10 ounces of oil). The reason I need to change the flywheel and starter gear is it shoots sparks once in a while when the starter gear skips the chipped teeth and reengages. After priming and running at idle for 15-20 minutes she ate a gallon of gas. Another question..when priming carbs it shoots gas out of the vent hole on one or two carbs...I adjusted floats months back..it does not leak when engine is running. Do I need needles and seats? Again...thanks for the help and suggestions.

 

[fucawi]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

The nut on the starter has probably been peened so it wont come off ...very large torque reversals here and speeds to 11,000 rpm...glad you found your fault ...

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Like Fucawi said--but I think we use different words for it-- The nut that holds the bendix on has deformed threads. It will either be squeezed (before installation) so it is very slightly oval in shape or there will be three "hash" marks staked in the outside flats. Either method slightly deforms the internal threads so they grab onto the shaft without damaging its threads

This keeps the nut from backing off and yes, it makes it very difficult to take off and install. Once you do remove it however, the deformity becomes less and it is somewhat easier to reinstall. The nut for pinions on lower units is the same. That is why factory recommends using a new one if the pinion is removed.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Fresh rebuild...starter acting weird...too much compression?

Ok found the REAL real problem..When installing the flywheel I slid the key in the flywheel first then tried to install it. Wouldnt go on so I gave it some persuasion with a mallet and I guess the key wasnt situated and deformed it and I also cracked the magnet on the flywheel. On the second flywheel I sanded the crank a tiny bit and the inside of the flywheel and inserted the key in the crank this time. Used a tiny bit of grease and the flywheel just dropped down with a few light taps of my hand. I guess we all learn sometime. She still runs good and turns over fine without any starter problems and no wobbles either. WOOOHOO!!!