Frozen Alpha I Gen II

[SteveRay]

I had my boat shrink wrapped and the guy wrapped around and under the drive creating a pocket for water.<br />Recently had some rain and the pocket filled with water and froze. <br />Will this damage my drive? <br />I have since cut drain holes, etc in the wrap but I am nervous that it could have damaged the drive<br />HELP EASE MY MIND PLEASE <br /><br /> Update 12/29/2004 : Went to the boat today and removed the ice. A tiny bit is left in the exhaust. There were no visible cracks to the drive . I assume I would see any cracks if there were any.Would there be other places to look for a crack? Thanks again. You guys have been a great help

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Steve,unless we get a warming trend,and I don't see that in Eastern Ma,I'd take it back to the guy.Sounds like he's new to shrinkwrapping.Either he can garage it or use the heat gun to melt the ice,then remove the offending plastic.<br />As to damage,it's hard to say,but if the 'bullet' part of the gearcase is full of h2o,yes you could possibly crack the lower gearcase.<br />I'd notify him 1st thing Monday morning,and tell him you hold him liable.<br /><br />DHP

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

I think this problem answers the old question. Should I have all my oils changed at the end of the season, or in the SPRING.

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

This also applys to a warm water boat being trailered up to a area where freezing can occur. They really are out to get you.

 

[SteveRay]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

I cut away the part thats holding the water. The plastic still covers the drive but the water/snow will not accumulate there now. The ice goes almost up to the second hole on the inlet for the water pump. I am getting really nervous here someone ease my mind

 

[Richard Petersen]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Definatly tell the guy. Drain the oil. No water? great! Water? Get all the water out even if you need to refill and drain again. REFILL, put plug back in. Pull the prop off. Wipe ALL oil or grease OFF. A simple check on a warm day or in a heated space is to slip a CLEAN trash can under and up to the lower unit so the bottom of the drive is touching the bottom of the can. Add hot water until it stays 90 degrees or so for a 1/2 hour. No oil sheen.GREAT. Could be a merry Christmas. Let the water cool down to almost freezing . Wipe off all of the unit. --- Drain ALL the liquid into a CLEAN CLEAR glass or plastic jars . Still no water? I would sleep very well. Best I can do for you till next spring. Rich

 

[trog100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

cant do it where i live cos it aint cold enough.. but take two glas bottles/jars with lids.. fill one full of water the other quarter full of water put em both outside.. let em freeze.. see if my theory about chambers having to be full with no room for expansion to take place before damage occurs is true..<br /><br />basically the full one should crack (glass cracks easy) and the quarter full one shouldnt..???..<br /><br />trog100

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Trog100 You made a good point.My idea is the ice has to form solid,then get even colder to expand to do damage.In your 1/4 full jar w/lid,if the ice does expand,can the jar hold the compresed air?I think it is 50/50.You can compress air,but how far?In glass.In aluminum.<br /><br />Steve,if the outdrive is exposed and you can see the ice,I'd be less worried.I would still call the guy that did the work.It's cold here now (near Worcester).If you are really worried and can trailer the boat,take it to the local car wash where you feed quarters in,and hose it down until the ice is gone.<br /><br />Still call the guy ! !<br /><br />DHP

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Please guys, I don't think theres a prob. NOW, go to sleep. Water IN the unit is what cracks cases, and thats caused by a bad seals, water getting in the oil, and then freezing after the owner didn't drain and refill with fresh in the fall. I assume that was done. Water that freezes ON THE OUTSIDE will just expand the plastic. Go back to bed.

 

[SteveRay]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

I should have clarified.....Yes the drive oil was changed and I had removed the prop. I could not get the drive completely down but it is mostly down. Basically the drive's skeg and halfway up the water pump inlets were frozen. It does not look like water was trapped anywhere. <br />My theory is that there was plenty of room for water to expand because it wasn't inside the drive as indicated by Robby.<br />Hope you guys are right.....Thanks again<br />HAPPY NEW YEAR

 

[trog100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

n awfull lot of folks seem paranoid about small amounts of water that "might" be lurking in their engines or drives over winter..<br /><br />i think it goes like this.. ice takes up more space than water.. neither ice or water is compressable.. i dont know the exact figures as regards size difference but i think its something less than 10%.. so when water turns to ice there has to be room to accommodate that extra 10% or so of volume else something breaks like the outside of an engine block for example..<br /><br />massive forces are exerted during this freezing proccess and if there is nowhere for the extra volume to be accomodated something has to break.. but like most things i recon the extra volume ice needs compared to water will follow the course of least resistance.. if there is plenty of airspace (air is compressable) the ice will expand into that and nothing has to break..<br /><br />paranoids might well be safe but they dont sleep well at night.. he he <br /><br />trog100

 

[Bondo]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

If I'm visualizing this right,<br />You have a Block of ice surrounding the lower unit, up to the waterpump intake...... Correct ??<br />I can see where you Definitely should be calling the people who did this....... And your Insurance co........<br />The Exhaust Cavity is Full of Ice..... I see a Split lower unit housing.......<br /><br />I Sure Hope I'm Wrong....................

 

[SteveRay]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Bondo your visual is correct. However I am hoping that because the water was not trapped in there that it would have been forced out before it froze. Is this a possibility? I will call the guy and explain the situation. How should I bring it up to him?

 

[SteveRay]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Don S any input?????

 

[Bondo]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

I once had an 80hp Merc outboard.... 1 winter I left it in the Trailer position in an unheated garage.....<br />Unknown to me, the little drain hole in the front of the "Torpedo" was Plugged..... It couldn't have held more than a pint of water...<br />The following Spring, I replaced the Housing before I went Boating...........<br /><br />I think Trog has Really Over Simplfied the effects of freezing water.........<br />

How should I bring it up to him?

Houston,............... I Think We Have A Problem...............<br /><br />Again, I Truely Hope I'm Wrong..........<br />Warmer weather is headed our way by mid-week.....<br />Keep your fingers Crossed........... I Am.......

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Back in frozen Illinois, the country club pool was "winterized" by forklifting a couple logs in to float, and forgot about until spring. The water would freeze, push the logs up for expansion, and no probs. In the down position it should just expand out the rear, but kinda agree with Bondo on the exhaust part. Too many varibles here anyway. Hard freeze? Solid block of ice with nowhere to go? This is a situation for pictures and a instant call to the shop that did it, and a little warning to us all to check stuff like this as water is tanacious and can travel in spots we never thouught of. Good luck!

 

[trog100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

u might well be right bondo.. he he.. but i have seen ice kinda poking out of a core/freezplug hole having pushed the plug right out about an inch without cracking the block.. that kinda backs up my theory about it taking the path of least resistance.. so do the logs in the country club pool..<br /><br />i dont think the guy who started this thread has much to worry about cos any water/ice in the leg would be surrounded by ice outside the leg and the pressure would kinda equalize.. in other words the ice outside the leg would stop the ice inside the leg pushing outward and cracking it.. errr.. i think... he he <br /><br />i did suggest that test with 1/4 and full bottles.. bet nobody tries it.. then of course we could test my second theory by placing the bottle full of water in a bucket of water so as it has ice on the outside as well as the inside.. he he he<br /><br />only trying to put at rest the minds of those who mainly cos u cant exactly see inside an engine and can never be really really sure.. that the odd bit of water lurking about "probably" wont do any damage.. whoops..<br /><br />beam me up scotty.. he he he<br /><br />trog100

 

[wvit100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Trog - there's one thing wrong with your water in a jar experiment. The ice that forms will first form as small crystals that will float to the top of the water. These crystal form a cap on the liquid that continues to freeze until the entire jar is frozen. In a jar the cap of ice that forms can slide along the smooth surface of the glass and move up the jar as the rest of the liquid under it expands. In a motor or outdrive the initial surface that freezes on top of the liquid would be frozen around the irregular shapes of the inside of the engine and would be locked in place. As the rest of the liquid freezes it will be confined by the frozen surface and something has to give. As water freezes it's volume increases by about 9%.

 

[wvit100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

Water is a wonderful creation. Most materials shrink (become more dense) as they are cooled a freeze. Water, on the other hand, expands (becomes less dense)as it cools. This property allows ice to float because it is less dense than the liquid water it floats in. If it were not for this property then the ice that freezes in a lake in winter would sink to the bottom and the lake would freeze from the bottom up. It wouldn't take many years for the lakes and most of the oceans to be solid ice where only a few feet down would ever thaw during the summer months. Maybe there was some devine plan to this world after all.

 

[trog100]

Re: Frozen Alpha I Gen II

wvit100.. u are correct about my jar experiment not being a perfect one.. shapes inside engines dont have smooth and perfectly parallel sides but i recon it was close enough to make the point that small quantities of water in the bottom of a chamber "probably" wont do any damage.. i would think that "mostly" the ice plug that forms on the top would still sooner push upwards or even form a dome shape sooner than the sides of the chamber breaking.. i dont disagree that given the correctly shaped chamber (big step in the sides for example) combined with the height of the water in the chamber being just so.. that a half empty one wont break.. i just think in a real world situation its not very likely.. thow u have convinced me that it is possible for a less than full chamber to break due to the plug effect.. its all about the shape of the chamber isnt it..<br /><br />course i dont recollect seeing many dome shaped frozen lakes which does kinda makes me wonder.. he he <br /><br />thanks for the interesting post about ice and the way it behaves by the way..<br /><br />trog100