got git-rot?

[Woodonglass]

Re: got git-rot?

Yep, and Having been researching for over 3 years the building of a wooden runabout, I know for a fact that the "Woody" builders use the CPES as the FIRST coat for penetration and a water sealant and then recommend using NON THINNED epoxy for all structural joints and filleting. You can go to any of the forums where they hang out and search for how to use CPES and it has multiple references concerning this very thing. Nowhere could I find reference to it being used or recommended in a structural capacity.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: got git-rot?

Wholey crap have any facts to back up your assumptions ? Smiths CPES has been used in the wooden boat circles for decades. They have a sterling reputation in the woody world.
Do you have a degree in chemistry or composites to back up your statement that all epoxies are of high viscosity and a water thin one could not be compounded from the start?

So you know they formulate and make their own epoxies from scratch?

I only have 40+ years in composites, from fabricator to tech service and sales, I work with the people that actually develop and formulate resins for use in many industries globally, not just the small world of wooden boat repair. It's the world I live in.


Read the link I posted from West Systems, this follows the general rules of what happens to epoxy when even small amounts of thinners are added.

 

[Tahorover]

Re: got git-rot?

So you know they formulate and make their own epoxies from scratch?

I only have have 40+ years in composites, from fabricator to tech service and sales, I work with the people that actually develop and formulate resins for use in many industries globally, not just the small world of wooden boat repair. It's the world I live in.

Read the link I posted from West Systems, this follows the general rules of what happens to epoxy when even small amounts of thinners are added.

But were not talking about West Systems and your back to your fact less assumptions about git rot and CPES.

 

[Tahorover]

Re: got git-rot?

I like this part of the link.

"It is clear that if a restored piece of wood is
a free-standing element painted for general weather
protection and it serves no structural purpose
whatsoever, then this impregnating product and its
technology is perfectly adequate."

I guess you missed all the test data in section 3:
http://www.woodrestoration.com/woodrestoration03.pdf

 

[ondarvr]

Re: got git-rot?

But were not talking about West Systems and your back to your fact less assumptions about git rot and CPES.

Since this makes no difference to me and you seem to feel its important.

CPES and Git Rot have no thinners, they are great products for structural repairs and do not suffer from reduced physical properties as do all other epoxies when thinned...sorry they some how reduce the viscosity utilizing no thinners.

Well that is unless you check on some of the ingredients.



Git rot

15% Dibutyl Phthalate, solvent plasticizer

30% Aliphatic Glycidyl Ether, reactive diluent.



CPES Hazardous Ingredients

Aromatic Hydrocarbon
Xylene (Xylol)
Toluene (Toluol)
Isopropyl Alcohol
(2-Propanol)
2-Butanone
4-Methyl 2-Pentanone
2-Heptanone
4-Methyl 2-hexanone
2-Pentanone
Dipropylene Glycol
Monomethylether
Diisobutyl Ketone
Ethyl Acetate
Isobutyl Acetate
Ethyl 3-Ethoxy Propionate
Propylene Glycol
Monomethylether Acetate
Hexyl Acetate
Isobutyl Isobutyrate
Diacetone Alcohol
Cyclohexanone

 

[ondarvr]

Re: got git-rot?

I guess you missed all the test data in section 3:
http://www.woodrestoration.com/woodrestoration03.pdf

Sort of, but not really.

They were testing very small pieces of weak wood where the epoxy could enhance the strenght dramtically, it would not have the same affect on a sheet of plywood or a timber.

Coat a toothpick with epoxy and the % of increase in strength will be huge, coat a 4X4 and the effects could hardly be measured.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: got git-rot?

This followed my first quote from the site.

It is also clear
that if a large beam (6 x 12 for example) is eaten
half way through by decay, then no amount of
epoxy treatment can replace the 75% of beam
strength lost. Somewhere in between the limits of
"cosmetic restoration only" and "original wood
remaining is adequate to carry any mechanical load"
lies a region where this product and its technology
have application validity.

 

[oops!]

Re: got git-rot?

Wholey crap have any facts to back up your assumptions ?
Do you have a degree in chemistry or composites to back up your statement that all epoxies are of high viscosity and a water thin one could not be compounded from the start?

LOL......

to the op.....the guy you are asking about works with the guys in white lab coats that make the stuff.
he will tell you the truth and not give you a sales pitch about a product......but....if you choose...you can beleive the sales pitch.

chances are.......the stuff your boat is made of came from the company he is with .....and ....he sold it to the manufacture and goes to dinner and fishes with the owner of the company that made your boat !

simply put.....he is one of the top experts in the country on frp's
hows that for facts. ! lol

 

[thunderbug]

Re: got git-rot?

WOW, this is one of the most "spirited" discussions I've seen in these forums! And as usual, loaded with info, some of it way above that of mortal man.

I'm getting closer to the bottm of the transom, port side riser was really in bad shape. My concern now is how to check for any other damage before I pour the new one. Can't find a diagram/schematic to show where stringers are located. Can any one tell me if there is a stringer just in front of the bottom of the transom that I need to check. I guess I'm worried that water may have gotten all the way down and worked forward, if that makes sense.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: got git-rot?

TB, We HAVE been neglecting YOU and YOU are what this forum is all about. We could really use some pics of your boat and what you are working on so we can make better decisions on how to help you. Post some pics so we can SEE what you SEE.

 

[thunderbug]

Re: got git-rot?

Trust me, I'm not feeling neglected - I asked for opinions and that's what I got. Actually, the in depth dicussions have really helped for I don't have a lot of experience working with epoxies and I want to get this repair right the first time. I'll try to get pix this w/e, but I don't own a digital camera so I'll need to call on the kids for help
Could always use my 35mm and have them scan them for me. Yeah, I'm one of those that doesn't have alot of use for tech, tough enough to use this 'puter.

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: got git-rot?

Trust me, I'm not feeling neglected - I asked for opinions and that's what I got. Actually, the in depth dicussions have really helped for I don't have a lot of experience working with epoxies and I want to get this repair right the first time. I'll try to get pix this w/e, but I don't own a digital camera so I'll need to call on the kids for help
Could always use my 35mm and have them scan them for me. Yeah, I'm one of those that doesn't have alot of use for tech, tough enough to use this 'puter.

Well I know this has nothing to do with your boat, but the high tech stuff is the same with me. We were on the job a while back and needed a picture of a conrol and my son called and told me to take a picture of it with my phone and send it to him. I didn't even know my phone would do that...LOL, but I do now...

Good luck with the restore and as always, as you can see, there is tons of experience to help here.

CW

 

[ezmobee]

Re: got git-rot?

You can get a digital camera super cheap on Craigslist since they become outdated so fast and people upgrade all the time. But even an older one will still be perfect for forum pictures. I bet $20-30 would get a decent one.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: got git-rot?

2 page thread.. no pics at all ( whatever excuse ) ...

Id love to help out here..but without visuals .. its apparently open season..

OP..not to sound Rude or anything..but..

If your not ready to give us Proper Info with Proper Pics .. then your only talking to the wall m8 ..

Look at the sticky top this forum.. Pics and Info !! All we are asking to get Started with..

Info Without pics ..

YD.

 

[thunderbug]

Re: got git-rot?

Hey YD, that was kinda rude. How 'bout lightening up a bit.
While I would like to post pix, my inability to do so has not stopped the flow of info I have gotten, some even from you. I gave boat info, asked specific questions, and started a thread that became a pretty intense, informative debate on the merits of thinned epoxies. Thanks again to all that helped, in spite of my short-comings.

 

[1fast68]

Re: got git-rot?

Thunderbug,
The most I know about epoxy is that the kind I've used in the past is a 2 part, slow cure. I use Raka brand, I've built 2 wooden boats with it and I would be hard pressed to believe there is another epoxy stronger than this stuff. They have a web site you can browse their products, I always use the slow cure. If your talking about filling a transom hole, that's a lot of epoxy and this stuff isn't cheap. Good luck, I will probably not follow this thread but thought I might could help.