Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

I did not check the line going from the fuel pump to the carbs but will do this.
On removing carb to check floats, is there a way that i can remove 1 carb at a time or would i need to take them off to where all 3 carbs are off and still assembled?

Unscrewed top carb bowl gas came out, pumped bulb again gas came out again. I would like to try the starting fluid but little weary because of my lack of knowledge. If i have the air box off do i spray in opening where the choke plates are and do i put in each carb or just one?


On the flywheel line and carb line i have taken a pictures and circled the lines to verify that we are both on same page. In the picture of the carb are you talking about the mark circled in red or green. On the flywheel are you talking about the mark circled in red or green. Also when i took top out of cylinder and put screwdriver in there did not find a screw. There is a screw on the top of the cylinder cover, would this be the screw you are referring to.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Screw with the green circle is the air screw.
Red marks should line up when the piston is all the way out.
Remove the top spark plug use skinny screw driver or stick.Put it in the plug hole.Turn the flywheel till the stick or screwdriver stops comming out.Then the red lines should be real close.The 3 lines are timing marks.We'll use them if we have to remove the flywheel.
Don't know about screw on the cylinder cover.Pic?
The starting fluid is no big deal. Just spray it in the carb cover 3-4 seconds
Then try starting.I wouldn't have you do something that would hurt you.
You do have a bomb proof suit right.Kidding.
When ever you work on ANYTHING with moving parts you should have safety glasses and a good fire extinguisher close.
I have never needed the fire extinguisher but it's good to have.J

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Karla there is no screw in the spark plug hole. You just use the screwdriver to contact the top of the piston so you can tell when the piston is all the way up when you're rotating the flywheel clockwise. When the screwdriver pushes out as far as it will go then check the marks on the flywheel and carb. Also...did you check the flux capacitor under the flywheel?

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

okay when i looked with flashlight in plug hole all i saw was metal, where is the piston, above? below? to one of the sides?

Right now i am at a stand still. I went to put glass inline filter back on and noticed a whole lot of air bubbles. Retightened everything, still bubbles. Decided maybe leak from the primer bulb. Put new bulb on did not work still air bubbles. Put old one back on because it seemed like the old one worked better, not so. Not so, both bulbs will not even get hard. Tightened and tightened. Tighten the screws on inline filter so hard that i broke the threads. Now need new filter. I stopped there. How can something so simple end up being so frrustrating. Those clamps are as tight as i can get them. I have no idea where the air is coming from or why when i took bulbs out and put back on things got worse. The arrows are pointing in right direction and everything. I have checked the line for bubbles before by looking at the glass filter but today whas first time i saw anything. It is substantial amount of air coming from somewhere. I went to store and bought some loctite stik & seal for oil and gas to put on so that it will seal it. i am not sure if this is right sealant to use. Is this okay to do?

What is flux capacitator and what would i be checking for, can i see it without taking flywheel off. is this electrical. i will see if i can find in clymer manual.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

I was just kidding about the flux capacitor thing. That was from the movie Back to the Future. The piston is straight in the spark plug hole. You have to check all hoses and everything else now to find that air leak. Make sure you have the correct size hoses and clamps tight enough.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Shame on you Jason!!!

The metal you see in the plug hole is the piston.
Take a screw driver and put it in the plug hole.Turn the motor over by hand(remove the other 2 plugs makes it easier)then when the screwdriver won't come out anymore then check the red lines.

You sure your tank has gas in it?Undo all the hose connections.Put them all back on and just snug them up.Is there an inline connector from the tank to the motor.Sometimes the seal in them goes bad and they let air in.Squeeze ball in the line right?It could be backwards.
NOW!!!!!I'm trying to help but you won't do the easiest thing.Spraying some starting fluid in the carbs..You've been through everything twice.Do the easiest thing first.
If that doesn't help then my next step is the electrical system.The magnet is on the flywheel inside it.When your turning it by hand look up under the flywheel and see if it's moving with the flywheel.It's the brown strip just inside the flywheel.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

okay guys, don't mess with texas! Especially a women from Texas!! Jason you real lucky i did not go thumbing through the Clymer manual but you did make me laugh so I will let it slide this time
It was the inline fuel filter causing problem i bought new one and put on, do not know if solved air problem cause ran out of daylight. Glad i broke the fuel filter or i may have never figured it out. was gonna do the starting fluid but got side tracked then got totally frustrated and did not want to mess with it anymore. you suggested that i check the key thing first before going to starting fluid but i was waiting for answers to my questions about how to test. will let you know how things work out. I sure am learning alot from you fellas

My motor is a 1989 force/us marine 85HP

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

okay, the lines on flywheel matched up perfectly. After this i go to turn motor over thinking this would make marks go back to original position before i tryed the starting fluid and it made a horribly loud noise coming from flywheel and starter, kinda like if starter gears go out but different, kind of a grinding sound. So i then realized that i was supposed to turn the flywheel back to original position and it did not do it again but i worried i screwed something up by doing this.

I finally got the motor started with the starting fluid but it sounded really bad and i have never heard the motor sound like that. The motor would jerk and the area right above the prop was spitting out water but seemed like having hard time, it would start to spit bunc of water out and then it would jerk like it was not able to get it all out. water was coming out from the other hole on the motor leg so i know the water pump is working. I wish i could describe the noise the motor was making it was kinda of like the sound when you have the motor reved up to high but still very different. In fact i have never heard this sound on any motor, car boat, etc. Wish had a way to record for you to hear. I wish i would have just tryed the starting fluid first because now i think i messed something up by messing with the flywheel.

I am not seeing the air like i was, but from squeezing the bulb i can tell there is some air getting in, it will get hard but not all the way full. I think i may know what some of the problem is. I noticed that the hose coming from the fuel pump to the inline fuel filter is different from the hose going from the tank to the other side of primer bulb. It is way easy to put on the fittings and is hard plastic on inside and is a yellowish white color it looks different on the inside too not black rubber more of a hard yellowish plastic and does not fit very tight.. I know that i did not do this. At beginning of summer i put all new hose on it So I the mechanic had to have done that. I think some of the problem to was that I had the air vent open to much on gas tank, it is a portable 12 gallon tank. WOuld not prime very well until i shut it some. Mechanic told me to keep it open all the way. So is it supposed to be open all the way?

Anyway hope you guys can help out this little ol gal from Texas:redface:

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The vent is open all the way.
Spraying starting fluid shouldn't make any difference in the way the starter works on the flywheel..The plug wires on right?
There is nothing you can do to the flywheel to hurt it.
Does it start now?You said it runs.How long? Air in the lines won't hurt anything.The connections on the tank might not be good.
The bulb doesn't have to be rock hard.As long as it pushes gas to the carbs.
Start it and see if it's gonna run.Do another compression test.
The spray just enriches the air.Kinda like a shot of oxygen when your short of breath.
If it makes a real clunking sound anything could be happening. Post Your results.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Well i did not run it that long because of the way the motor was running. It did not seem like it was going to die or anything. Just sounded like the engine was running way to high and would jerk and it seemed like even intervals with the jerking. Not a constant jerk. I am a little lost now. AS for the sound of the motor not the jerking, it is pretty loud in neutral but sounds like it is reved up. I did not try to put it in gear because it already sounded like it was running to high and it has a much different sound. It is actually a really odd sound. I thought maybe it was idling to high so i adjusted the idle stop screw. This made no difference. I had turned it up the other day to see if that would hellp get it started. I was able to get it to start more than once after the fluid. I would have ran it longer but it just did not sound right. It is not stalling or acting like it is going to die or anything. No backfiring. I would be interested to at least hear your thoughts on the jerking of motor, do you think it is related to spark plugs?


I did not think that the starting fluid caused a problem with the flywheel or starter. When i heard the loud sound coming from flywheel/starter i had not sprayed any fluid it, i did not even have plugs in yet. I just turned it over thinking this would realign flywheel. It made a really loud grinding sound like my thoughts are that it had someting to do with the teeth on flywheel and starter grinding or something just not sure but it did not sound good at all.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Make sure you put the spark plug wires back on right. Top coil goes to top cylinder..middle to middle...bottom to bottom. Could be a bad plug possibly. Start by checking the wires then replacing the plugs if it doesn't help. If you have 3 spark testers hook them all up to each cylinder and check firing order (1,2,3 top to bottom) If that doesn't work check the idle mixture screw on one of the carbs. This screw is located just above the carb opening. Insert the flat head screw driver until it seats in the screw and mark the screwdriver and carb at the same point with a sharpie. Now gently turn clockwise until the screwdriver stops (dont turn too hard) and count the turns. Amount of turns should be 1 1/8th to 1 1/4 ATLEAST!! If it's atleast 1 1/8th to 1 1/2 then turn the screw back to where you found it. Check other carbs just incase. I found mine to be at 1 1/2 with standard bore. Sounds like it's running lean and based on your description of the mechanic from other employees at that shop i'd say he misadjusted the idle mixture screws after doing the carbs and testing. How is the foam on the cowl? Unscrew air jet on the side of each carb and make sure they aren't clogged. Air jet is a brass or bronze colored 1/4" (about) screw with a hole in the middle and a notch in it to fit a flat head into. I'm not a marine mechanic but i've been learning by tinkering around with my 2 BLOWN powerheads...lol. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

I had someone else mess with the carbs while out on a trip, the boat got worse after this, so one of the reasons I gave the boat to him was to readjust carbs and clean. He said that he did not adjust the carbs after he cleaned out all of the gunk. I just found this out the other day. His solution to me was put on dino. I am not doing that. I did adjust them out to 1 and 1/8 as recommended by jerry. so should i turn the screw on the top carb counter clockwise to make richer? I thought counterclockwise is richer and clock wise is leaner. So what do you mean about how is the foam on the cowl, is this another one of your jokes? The jets sound like something easy to do.

Unfortunately, i only have 1 spark tester. Right now i need to buy the proper hose and size to replace what the mechanic put on.

I can say that it really confused me a little when i turned the vent screw on fuel tank to where not as much air came in and then the bulb got hard but would not before this. Makes me think that there could be air getting into the tank another way.

What concerns me more than the jerking is the way the motor sounds. It might sound this way because it was running on starter fluid and the gas that had made it to the carbs just not sure. So if motor running lean would this make it sound like it is reved up to high or something?

The other day i touched the throttle cam linkage, when i did this i put my finger on the part where the ball and it turned. could i have messed something up on the throttle cam linkage. The reason i did this was that when a friend of mine was with me in boat and having hard time starting he pushed the throttle cam down with his finger to give it more gas and it started. He was trying to tell me how to do this on the phone but i could not get the cam to move and assumed it was because it was in nuetral. of course someone would have to be there with me for this to work. anyway i noticed the nuts were lose on it but i think that is way they are supposed to be did not tighten them or anything. how can i check this?

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Air in the fuel tank is not a problem.You need to have the vent open all the way.If it's closed the gas won't go to the motor and cause it to stop.
It won't do it right away but will eventually stop the motor.Leave it open.
The foam on the inside the cowl comes loose and gets into the carb.Turn the cowl over and take it all out,if it hasn't already been done.
On land the motor will run faster without the back pressure from the water.
The carb settings for an 88/85 should be 1 -1 and 1/8 turn out.
The factory says leave it at that.I set mine like that and haven't had trouble for 22 years.
If you want you can try to adjust them but that needs to be done in the water.On the hose the adjusting is a waste of time.
In the water, motor warm and at an idle.Idle should be about 750rpm
The jerking could be a lean condition.Again in the water to set.
The throttle cam linkge is just to adjust the linkage.You didn't do anything by moving it.The small arm on the trigger is for setting the idle,DON"T TOUCH!!!
Find the link by Frank about link and sinc and make sure that the linkage is set right.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Honestly there is no foam in my cowling(your are talking about the cover right)
I am aware that the boat will run faster on land and i have run the motor several times out of the water but his is a very different sound. The motor just sounds very different. The sound is different enough that i know for sure if i take it out it will not run. My motor is a 1989 85hp force/us marine. When you say small arm on the trigger are you refering to throttle cam link the has ball connectors on it. I read in the manual last night that the stop nuts on it are supposed to be tightened. On mine the nuts are loose enough that if you touch they will turn. am i reading wrong instructions or should these be tightened down. I am pretty close to just taking it to another boat mechanic

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Those nuts are supposed to be tight. Can you make a short video of the engine running with your digi cam if you have one and post it on youtube with a link? I'm sure it will help out a lot.

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

i checked again and one of the nuts is tight and the other is not, so i will tighten tomorrow. I do not have video cam. I considered using my cell phone but i do not have the connections to make it to where i can put on the computer. I might check into buying cables for the phone but not sure if this will be good enough video. I went to start it this afternoon and it started up twice without starting fluid but i had forgotten to open vent on the motor and it died. After that i could not get it started again. I heard a different noise this time around kinda like something was banging(hitting) on something . Not sure if this sound was from motor jerking or not because it died on me and not able to start again. Did not have time to try fluid again cause getting dark out. The bulb was still hard.

I am thinking that the choke is causing the problem with starting. If i click it 7or 8 times it stops working, if i wait a minute or two it will start working again. Since the mechanic decided i needed a whole bunch of grease on the arm and around the plunger, i am thinking it may have gotten down into the solonoid somehow not sure and is gumming up causing it too stick. I checked to see if any gas was coming out of the carbs after the choke would not work and no gas coming out. I cleaned all of the grease off that i could get to. I checked the wires to see if they were getting real hot from poor connection and everything was fine. If i tighten the nut will it mess up the adjustment or could not having the nut tightened caused it to get out of adjustment?

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The cowl use to have a foam liner to deaden the sound.
The choke plunger should be clean,no grease or oil. It comes off and easy to clean.Clicking 7-8 times the solenoid heats up and probably stop till it cools.Cleaning it should stop this.
If one nut was tight it probably didn't move.
That's probably not your starting problem.
You do another compression test?
If it's making a banging sound then something inside is going.
When you hit the choke and it closes all three of the front butterflys it enriches the fuel to help start.
When the mechanic worked on it are you sure the carbs were put back together right? You said he didn't mess with the air screws so how did he clean the carbs with out removing them.
How long are you holding the key when you try to start?It could take as long as 15 seconds to start.That's holding the choke in all that time too.
Fast idle,key on,choke pushed in,then try to start.
What plugs you running?Keep them clean.Fouled out plugs won't help.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

I put new champion ul18v plugs in yesterday. When i first got boat back i was able to start but it was much harder than before and boat dying alot more than before. Only things i did was decarb and fuel pump diaphram change. could the valve spring gotten damaged during this process or something. Well that good question on the needles, he said he did not but he would have had to. Will take choke apart and clean, are you saying part with plunger can be taken apart and cleaned. I do not keep choke in for that long i usually do not keep trying to start it for that long cause i do not want to wear out the starter. i usually just push down choke while trying to start but never for 15 seconds. Will try the 15 second thing. I hope the banging i was hearing was just the motor and boat otherwise i may have serious problem. It is possible that he did not put something back in right but i did take it out for run when got it back. Would it even run if he put the carbs back together wrong? I will do another compression test.

IF it does not start after the 15second thing should i use starting fluid again?

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Did you check this yet as Jerry suggested? It's a must since your friend played with the carbs. Did he play with the idle mixture also? You can really do some damage adjusting these carbs not knowing what your doing (your friend). Hopefully that's not a piece of your piston knocking around in there. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=431021&highlight=link+sync

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Are you talking about jerry's suggestion as in when he told me to go to franks section on synchronizing. When my friend messed with the carbs is when i decided to take to mechanic in hopes that he would do all of this. Friend messed with all 3 carbs. Also i had posted a picture of my spark plugs and frank said one of the plugs showed i was probably running lean, this was before i took to mechanic. another reason i gave to mechanic. Mechanic cleaned carbs, said there was alot of build up in bottom two carbs. Checked compression and said top two 135 and bottom 80. Told me i had most likely been running boat on 2 cylinders. I guess he felt that the carb cleaning would fix this issue. He told me he thought the piston rings were sticking. Do not know what he did to address this. Said he took it out and ran it up to 39mph which would be wot on this boat. (i myself have rarely ran at WOT) TOld me this brought compression up on the bottom cylinder to 100. SO now 135,135,100. Told me boat running great and to take out and the compression should go up. You know rest of story from my posts. ran worse than before with new problems.

Only thing i have adjusted on boat since got back was other day when jerry recommended 1 1/8 turn out on each carb. did not make difference on being able to start, it may be a little late for that. I get a little confused on what is meant by idle screw. There is screw by throttle cam called idle screw for setting idle speed and then people refer to idle screw when they are talking about adjusting carbs, so not sure which one you mean. I have turned the idle screw by the throttle cam the other day, i think it is called idle stop screw.

Well if it the pistons knocking around or something is loose then maybe i should not try and start it. From looking at the powehead section it looks way to complicated for me to try and take a look at the pistons. I doubt i have the right tools. wish there was easy way to look at them.

You know how those remote control planes sound that people have as a hobby. The sound that came from my motor reminded me of the sound that comes from one of these planes. Not exactly like that but similar. I have been in many boats for many years never heard this before.