Hey Police Officers RANT

SwampNut

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
325
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

On the one hand, the police should and could be doing more - on the other hand, they're trampling individual rights. Well, which is it?
Doing more is easy. Do more about real, violent crimes with victims. Do less about non-crimes which incidentally are the cause of all the rights-trampling. Here's a list of things that are an affront to the foundations of this country, which, if done away with, would leave you free to go stop real crimes.<br /><br />Drug prohibition<br />Coercive searches in pursuit of drugs<br />No-knock warrants--deadly<br />Stopping people for looking like a dealer (happened to me due to the car I had)<br />Most traffic enforcement<br /><br />Really, anything that doesn't have a victim and an obvious and direct relation to the public safety.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
4,666
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

And the Rant goes on, the constant win you over rant goes on. lidey lidey lidey lide. (In four four time.) :rolleyes:
 

kvwelch

Cadet
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
21
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

I don't think i could sit in the boat all day with "wannagofishin".
 

heycods

Captain
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
3,941
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

You might be surprised KV, in the time I have spent here It seems to me that most of us have lots of common ground, we may not agree on everything. Thats human nature, but sometimes thier is a gray area that causes the controversy, I have dodged this thread like lightning, lots of strong opinions here.I see truth in both sides but I dont wont to live in a country with no police. Do some departments need reform sure, but lets dont throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

wannagofishin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
159
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

kvwelch, that's funny, I don't remember inviting you. No, I shouldn't say that. If you don't like my opinions, that's fine. But if you're not ready to defend your opinions and engage in strong debate, maybe you shouldn't be in a boat with me all day. <br /><br />The thing is, I'd be glad to fish with either of the officers here. If you've carefully read this thread, you'll see we have a lot more in common than not. Those things we disagree on are natural perspectives, the way we see the same thing from two points of view. If any person I spent any time with agreed with everything I said, or vise versa, something would be very wrong. This is how ideas get exchanged, and problems solved. Do you think the founding fathers of this great nation agreed on everything? Not hardly. That's why it took several years and 10 amendments to create the Constitution. It wasn't one person telling the others how it was going to be, it was a group, debating, arguing, and coming to a common resolution.<br /><br />As a whole, I think the cops here have been very honest, sharing personal experiences with total strangers. One with a family history of jail time, and another going "Serpico" on a fellow officer. They have defended their position with passion, enthusiasm, and solid reasoning. I believe, and hope, I've done the same. Again, it seems to me we agree on more than you might think.<br /><br />1. We don't like crooked cops.<br />2. We don't believe cops should be babysitters.<br />3. Every American citizen, not in jail, nor on probation, should be allowed to carry a handgun.<br />(I'd like to interject here that I believe if the above were reality, we'd still have four airliners, two towers, an undamaged pentagon, and thousands of innocent Americans still alive.)<br />4. Citizens should take more responsibility for their lives and problems.<br />5. Fishing good - not able to fish, bad.<br /><br />Mostly where we disagree is in how the job is done. They believe they need to do certain things that I believe go beyond what the law should be. It may be legal for some police actions, but I don't think the law is right. Take RICO for instance. Enacted to combat organized crime, it basically says, "If you are a member of a group whose members are known to commit crimes, you are guilty by association." It may be the law, but it's not right. It's a way frustrated prosecutors can convict people on whom they have no real evidence. I'm all for getting bad guys off the street, but not at a cost of losing my liberty. Under the RICO act, I'd damn sure not be a Democrat! Kennedy's a murderer, Lehey's a traitor, and Kerry’s a coward and a traitor. Plus the fact they get most of their money from the unions that are known mob organizations, I would expect to be in jail. (BTW: I'm NOT a democ rat)<br /><br />Every day, we're losing more and more of our rights and liberties. The amazing point is that it is with the full support of some Americans. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin - "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" <br /><br />I understand you are doing your job according to the law. Some laws are wrong, reguardless what congress or the courts say. And you would agree if the tables were turned. Say there are 16 officers in your department. Seven of them are taking bribes from drug dealers or other corrupt persons. Your citizens file a lawsuit under the RICO Act, and because you are a member of that organization, and the crime was for profit, you find yourself in court facing charges based solely on your fellow officer's actions. Would you consider this a good law?
 

Kenneth Brown

Captain
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
3,481
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

I almost entirely support what WGF said. RICO is the part I disagree with. Citizens can't file a lawsuit under RICO, at least not to mt knowledge. If the situation was the same and the FBI filed RICO on us then I would agree it needed to be done. If there are 15 of us and 7 have gone bad then we have all failed. There is no way that the other 8 cannot see what was going on. For that reason they should be in the same boat. It is their job to report and act on illegal actions afterall. <br />About some laws being wrong- Yes I agree. Used correctly and in the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law there is no such thing as a bad law. The problem comes in when you have over-zealous cops/prosocutors that don't know when to draw the line.
 

Terry Olson

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
415
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Fellas! I haven't said what I meant clearly I think. I'm not saying that no one other than the police know anything about the law or law enforcement and therefore shouldn't have an opinion. If that's what you thought I said either you missed my point or it wasn't well made. <br /><br />The distinction I was hoping to make is that simply living in the community (where else would you live?), knowing or being related to a cop (knowing or being related to a doctor doesn't mean I know the first thing about medicine), or being politically active (law enforcement SHOULDN'T have anything whatsoever to do with politics) doesn't make you MORE!!! qualified than the police to know what you're talking about.<br /><br />Waterone - don't twist my words. No one deserves to be a crime victim. I hoped to point out that the police were never intended to guarantee the safety or security of anyone or anything. The police aren't guards - there aren't nearly enough of us and as so many have pointed out you really don't want us (the government) that deeply involved in your lives.<br /><br />As I said early on - the public are my customers and the crooks my opponents. I really see it that way and I approach my work as though I were in a customer service business. This isn't easy as most government organizations aren't constructed with this as the goal, but I try. You have to understand that in my work the customer isn't always right. In some businesses you can maintain this perspective because the result of doing as the customer asks is meaningless. Not so in law enforcment so balancing what people want us to do with what we know needs to be done is a difficult challenge. You wouldn't believe how often one of my "customers" wants me to do something illegal or otherwise improper because that's what they want me to do. We've heard the argument in this thread - go shut down the crack house down the street. Do whatever it takes, but don't you dare violate MY rights. You can violate theirs - they're crooks so it's OK. The problem is who gets to decide who has rights and who doesn't? Unfortunately my customers very often decide that we just don't have the fortitude to get the job done. The customer isn't always right, at least in my business and often they're unwilling to consider or accept any explanation. <br /><br />Wannago - I agree with some, but not all of what you said. There are some truly dangerous people who shouldn't have guns - period. Before you go off the deep end you should know that I'm a card carrying member of the NRA who vehemently disagrees with police administrators who attempt to speak for all cops in their politically correct opposition to an armed society. The problem here is that only some of those who belong incarcerated are actually locked up.<br /><br />RICO is misunderstood. If it worked the way you expressed I'd agree with you. RICO allows the government to charge not only the suspect they caught with the evidence of a crime but also those he CONSPIRED with for that same offense. It doesn't allow those who didn't participate in the conspiracy to be charged. How do you conspire? You do so by commiting an overt act toward the completion of the crime. This is most often used in drug prosecutions an entire organization is prosecuted. Think of a drug organization as a pyramid. The police, working through informants and other means, arrest those in the lowest levels of that pyramid. They're not the most culpable given their lower position within the organization. How do you work your way up the food chain? You force those you did catch to assist you or go to prison - their choice. If you have no way to leverage them you have no way to prosecute the bigger fish so to speak. So, if in your example I work with crooked cops I could and should be prosecuted IF I participated in a conspiracy to commit a crime of some sort. Simply being a member of that agency doesn't get you there - nor should it. <br /><br />Swampnut - Gotta call you on the legalization of drugs and I'll tell you why. Drug use - I mean drugs like meth, crack cocaine, heroin and the like - are the root of at least 80% of all crime in my experience. If drug use were truly a victimless crime I'd be with you completely, but it's not. It's a rare meth, crack cocaine, or heroin addict who can hold down a job, pay taxes, raise good kids, contribute to society, AND pay for their own dope. Most victimize the rest of us in order to fund their drug addiction. Let's talk treatment - most studies show a miserably low success rate for drug treatment. Meth treatment has the lowest success rate of something like 5% depending on whose study you believe. Prevention is where our money would be best spent, but there are some who can't be reached no matter how much money we throw at it.<br /><br />We will never prevent homicides - but you don't hear anyone saying we should just legalize it because we can't eliminate it. Laws are merely a codified version of our society's morals, norms, and values. Homicide is wrong and we have a law that says so - even though we can't stop them from taking place. Drug use is wrong (again, the drugs I cited and others with similar detrimental effects - there are some that I might agree should be legalized but that's another discussion)and as a society we should say so by making this illegal - even though we will never eliminate it. <br /><br />I don't see no-knock search warrant entries as a problem. I work narcotics and have for about a third of my career. I've been a cop for 17 years. Our drug task force executes more than 200 search warrants a year. Having been on at least 1,000 search warrant entries I can count on one hand the number of times we encountered a problem. In those instances none had anything to di with whether we knocked or not. In fact, the element of surprise and overwhelming force keep not only the officers safe but the suspects as well. Many will resist if given the opportunity. Taking them by surprise prevents their resistance and the need for physical force that might injure either the suspects or the officers. The courts aren't issuing no-knock warrants in our area unless we articulate a significant need. I find a paralell in the WMD discussion. I hate to even mention it for fear of sending this thread even further off the topic. We told the bad guys we were coming, when were going to get there, and where we were going to search. Is it any wonder we didn't find anything? Drug enforcement is the same way and I can't tell you how many times the bad guys flushed their dope while we stood knocking on the front door. That's how the game is played as ridiculous as that sounds. Wonder why we can't just shut down that crack house down the block? <br /><br />I already shared my feelings about traffic enforcement. It's a tremendous waste of time and resource with the only result being the alienation of otherwise law abiding citizens. Unfortunately the average person believes that traffic violations are a huge problem and the believe that enforcement will change behavior. Here again, is the customer always right? Should the police do traffic enforcement because the public demands it, even though there are so many better uses of our time and resources? That's the question that can't be answered to the complete satisfaction of everyone at the same time. <br /><br />In this business you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. All you can do is what you believe to be right and take the slings and arrows from those who'd prefer you do what they think is right.<br /><br />Police work is never ever going to result in the eradication of crime no matter how we do it. The war on drugs can't be won and we can't keep people from hurting and killing each other. Young cops think they're going to change the world. It doesn't take long to realize that this just isn't the case. When you're new you think the only reason things are so bad is that the cops who came before you were lazy or ineffective. Sooner or later you realize that this just isn't the case. <br /><br />17 years later I've come to view my work to be like that of a garbage man. They will never prevent or eliminate the creation of garbage but if they quit hauling it away we'd have a real problem. The police will never prevent or eliminate crime but if we quit doing what is possible we'd have a real problem. We control crime to the extent possible. We definitely don't eliminate it.
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
Staff member
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
26,071
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Gentleman - I know I was pissed when I started this thread....<br /><br />It was not my intention to have it skyrocket..... :eek: <br /><br />I am proud to say Vermont has the lowest crime rate in the US. <br /><br />Thank you everyone for your input. :cool:
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Looks to me like we all are in agreement on a lot of opinions, just have different ways of expressing them. <br />Yes traffic patrol is a waste of time, but a necessary evil in some cases. Drug enforcement is necessary in more ways than just jailing the user. there is a very very fine line between civil rights violations and doing what is right and necessary to finish the job. And finally there is a lot of corruption in this business. Maybe equal to the amount of corruption in other professions but those professions do not effect the general citizen like actions of the police. <br /><br />I used to work traffic detail only. I did not like writing tickets. I did work a lot of DWI enforcement, but have never staked out a bar. I was on a DWI task force for a while where that is all we did. But again we never staked out a bar. We patrolled the bar districts but that is where the citizen complaints were coming from. During that time we also aided in early break ups in bar fights, prostitution, drug distribution, and even a few stolen vehicles. Now I am in an administrative role which I hate. I do very litle admin work, and still work mostly investigations. Primarily child sexual assault crimes and narcotics. I am finding that about 80% of the child molesting cases involve a family friend that was over hitting meth with dad. When dad leaves them alone then it happens. I do work some burglaries and can say that our when the burglary reports skyrocket within 3 days so does the drug cases. People need money for dope so they steal it. Meth users love antiques and steal a lot of them just before the big dealers get shipments in. We will never eliminate drug use. I won't even kid myself into that. I see it as being a regulator. Keeping it out of the schools as much as we can. Keep it away from the parks and playgrounds. Keep the big players from getting too big. We only control it and keep it somewhat underground. It feels like a waste of time and money until we find a 10 year old selling it at school. <br /><br />I am over 10 years on the job with only 1 reprimand on my file. I got reprimanded when I used too little force on someone. Ended in a wrestling match where we both got injured. If I would have jumped on and taken control right off nobody would have been hurt. But he looked like a nice guy and I let that cloud my judgement. <br /><br />I do believe everyone but a select few should be allowed not only to carry but to carry concealed if they want to. The current federal laws of convicted felons not alowed to possess is a joke. I know people who have felony bad check convictions. Why can't they go hunting anymore? I think the only poeple that should be restricted are those convicted of violent felonies against other people, people with active domestic violence protection orders against them. That is one freedom that defines our country and should not be messed with. Besides I have worked a few homocides and attempted homocides. NONE involved guns. Baseball bats, knives, and even a motor vehicle, fire, and a chunk of pipe. So next we outlaw all of these weapons? <br /><br />I think on most points we all agree. There are a few misunderstandings of the facts from both sides, and a few heated opinions and ideas from both sides. This is what makes a good debate and makes this country what it is. <br /><br />So now for the fishing trip. It is kind of cold so ice fishing might be the way to go.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

The one thing i find interesting is that i like traffic patrol police they the only people that keeps the roads here even remotly safe.<br /><br />If there not out there writeing tickets somebody will be trying to bump draft me on the way to work everyday.<br /><br />tommays
 

wannagofishin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
159
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Terry, You need to type RICO Act into Google and see how the law has been used. No, they don't need any evidence you participated in the criminal act of another member of your group. The mere fact you belong to the group is evidence enough for conviction. KB. you need to do the same. Citizens can sue using the RICO Act. Read:<br />Ellen Mariani Lawsuit: 9/11 Victim's Wife Sues Bush Under RICO Act ... on Google
 

SwampNut

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
325
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

One hell of a nice post to think about, deputydawg. Well said. I still want to remove all enforcement of drug prohibition laws (and no, don't use it myself), but I understand where you're coming from.
 

waterone1@aol.com

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Messages
1,235
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Seams like things are settling down a bit and we're finding more common ground. After re-reading some of my posts, perhaps I was not explaining my points as well as I should have. First, let me say that for the most part I respect and appreciate the cops on the street and what they do( that was the primary reason that I stated that I have family that are cops). When I say that I have some problems with law enforcement, that is not directed at any officer or for that matter officers in general. To me, law enforcement is much broader, that includes laws that probably shouldn't exist or need to be revised, administration, supervision and allocation of resources.<br />Perhaps we can debate all of those things some other time. <br />I have never been arrested and I have never received a traffic citation....that I didn't deserve. One thing I know for fact, NEVER debate a cop or play lawyer on the side of the road........they are in charge of that situation, as they should be....if you think otherwise.....you will find yourself in trouble. Even IF, you truely believe a cop is wrong, deal with it later, in court.<br />Police officers, please be aware that many citizens are fed up with what is happening in this country, I don't think people mean to take it out on you, but many don't know what to do. It seams that violent crime is up, shootings, robbery, rape, home invasions, etc. So please understand, when a law abiding citizen gets stopped at a "sobriety checkpoint", even though he has done nothing wrong, and he ask's "why aren't you arresting real criminals"....It's more about general frustration of what this country's become, than anything else.
 

heycods

Captain
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
3,941
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Originally posted by waterone1:<br /> Seams like things are settling down a bit and we're finding more common ground. After re-reading some of my posts, perhaps I was not explaining my points as well as I should have. First, let me say that for the most part I respect and appreciate the cops on the street and what they do( that was the primary reason that I stated that I have family that are cops). When I say that I have some problems with law enforcement, that is not directed at any officer or for that matter officers in general. To me, law enforcement is much broader, that includes laws that probably shouldn't exist or need to be revised, administration, supervision and allocation of resources.<br />Perhaps we can debate all of those things some other time. <br />I have never been arrested and I have never received a traffic citation....that I didn't deserve. One thing I know for fact, NEVER debate a cop or play lawyer on the side of the road........they are in charge of that situation, as they should be....if you think otherwise.....you will find yourself in trouble. Even IF, you truely believe a cop is wrong, deal with it later, in court.<br />Police officers, please be aware that many citizens are fed up with what is happening in this country, I don't think people mean to take it out on you, but many don't know what to do. It seams that violent crime is up, shootings, robbery, rape, home invasions, etc. So please understand, when a law abiding citizen gets stopped at a "sobriety checkpoint", even though he has done nothing wrong, and he ask's "why aren't you arresting real criminals"....It's more about general frustration of what this country's become, than anything else.
Wellsaid Water One as was Dep Dog. and no dont change your name DD, seems as I remember a cartoon dog named Depudy Dog, Muttly Likes the name.<br /> ;) :D
 

kvwelch

Cadet
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
21
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

Dang WTGF, I didn't think I had to ask your permission to engage in the forum. I sat up the other night and read the entire forum. Each of you make valid points in regards to the law. I have been a state trooper for 19 years and I don't agree with alot of the laws that are enforced within my state,but I took an oath to do just that. I agree we need to arm our citizens so they can adequitly defend their families as well as their property. WTGF, I am passionate about alot of things, but prefer not to debate them because it is not going to change my opinion. I'm sure you are a strong willed fellow also, and i'm sure no one will change your mind. So we can agree to disagree. I have enjoyed the forum, So I will leave it at that. Hope everyone fills the live well. :)
 

wannagofishin

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
159
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

kv,<br />The first line should have read "I don't remember inviting you into my boat." It was supposed to be a humorous reference to your post. I didn't mean to imply you couldn't engage in the discussion here. The more, the merrier!
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: Hey Police Officers RANT

I have that warm tingly feeling so I think.....oh wait that wasn't....I gotta go!<br /><br />Welcome aboard Kvwelch!
 
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