How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls for

Scali · May 18, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Interesting stuff Bill, I wouldve bet if someone tryed to tell me that, LOL. I believe you, You wouldnt have posted it here with all these 2 stroke motorheads around.. Now, I knew that ratios were once the other way, 25-1 ect. but this is news to me.. Wow, thats a measly 8 ounces per 6 gallons..

LubeDude · May 18, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by WillyBWright: But to let that lead the customer to believe that any 2-stroke can be run at 100:1 is nothing short of criminally irresponsible.

So, you think that Amsoil is criminally irresponsable for manufacturing a product that for thirty + years has worked fine in all engines but your brothers,

I still say something else happened, but we will never settle this one. They now have split there 100:1 oils into the regular 100:1 for air cooled, and the new 100:1 for outboards. Honestly I wish that they would just bottle the HP Injector which is a 50:1 oil or injector oil, actually have it TC-W3 certified, and sell it as a 50:1 outboard oil. I actually see no good reason to try and push a 100:1 oil for all this time when most are skeptical of it in the first place.

TOHATSU GURU · May 18, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

I know of two Japanese outboard brands that were designed to be run at 100:1 with TCW-3....And neither one will admit it. It takes away from the safety margin when other things go wrong. Back in 85 one manufacturer actually recommended a synth European oil called "Veedol Binatiuc" or something like that, that was made by Shell. We were told that it was the only synth that met their requirements and that it could be used at 100:1 without increasing risk. I've just never found anyone who actually used that brand. Amsoil, with it's many proponents, is probably a safe bet at 100:1 but, I would be a lot more comfortable if I saw people actually using it in premix engines.....I'm assuming it's the cost that keeps people away, but.........Anyone else had bad or good luck with any brand synth at a 100:1 mix? Again...theory is nice, but real field use is what I'm looking for.

TheOilDoc · May 18, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

From AMSOIL: "YOU MAY USE AMSOIL SYNTHETIC PRE-MIX 2-CYCLE OIL AT 100 TO 1 NO MATTER WHAT THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDS WITHOUT VOIDING ANY WARRANTIES!"

Here, Amsoil seems to know more about the engine than the manufacturer who actually made it. I would not suggest any member ignore the engine manufacturer's specification for the sake of an oil marketer's claim. And I would certainly question why Amsoil mentions warranties.

From Amsoil: "A mix ration of 100:1 is recommended for normal duty service in applications such as motorcycles, outboard motors, snowmobiles, weed eaters, lawn mowers and chain saws. For "severe service" applications, richer mix ratios of 50:1 to 80:1 are recommended. These include racing motors and hot operating workhorse motors that continuously run for extended periods of time."

This contradicts their first claim. Apparently you can't run 100:1 in all engines after all. It would appear it is up to you to determine what type of "service" your engine sees, and mix the ratio accordingly. My experience is that most outboards are used in "severe service" conditions...High cylinder temperatures, continuous long periods at high rpm pushing big loads. As a professional who's actually tested oils in outboards under laboratory conditions, I am not surprised at the failure member WillyBWright experienced with the 100:1 ratio.

WillyBWright · May 18, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

GW came up with a term running against Gore. "Fuzzy math" seems to apply. There is a lot of double-talk in the marketing I've seen. A lot of contradictions. A LOT of hoops to jump through to get any warranty consideration, some of which are impossible (supply a sample containg no less than 8oz of the lubricant used in it's original form. Oops, I dumped it in the gas.

LOOPHOLE ALERT!!!

) They also do not cover things like getting towed back to shore, or other sundry expenses related to the failure. ALL such expenses incurred by the victim are specifically denied in their warranty. If I ever have a shop of my own, I intend to sell the stuff. The whole line-up. My father did way back when it was Amzoil. They make good stuff and people want to buy it. But I will never advise using any 2-stroke oil at 100:1 unless the Motor says so. With one exception ... kickers used solely for trolling (any good oil will do). There will be a disclaimer given with all 2-stroke oils sold, "The proprietor Strongly Advises against mixing at 100:1 (unless the motor is specified to be run at that ratio). Always mix at the MOTOR manufacturer's specified ratio to reap the full benefit of this superior product."

khc1970 · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

He said there was a huge safety factor even at 100:1. If memory serves right actual lube ratio needed was 150:1 at full throttle and 300:1 at idle. Flip side to this discussion is he said synthetic was not cost effective in terms of motor life for the avg boater. [/QB]

Maybe this is why E-tec can use so little oil.....

LubeDude · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by TheOilDoc: 

From AMSOIL: "YOU MAY USE AMSOIL SYNTHETIC PRE-MIX 2-CYCLE OIL AT 100 TO 1 NO MATTER WHAT THE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDS WITHOUT VOIDING ANY WARRANTIES "A mix ration of 100:1 is recommended for normal duty service in applications such as motorcycles, outboard motors, snowmobiles, weed eaters, lawn mowers and chain saws. For "severe service" applications, richer mix ratios of 50:1 to 80:1 are recommended. These include racing motors and hot operating workhorse motors that continuously run for extended periods of time." 

Click to expand...

I have access to all of Amsoils liturature, an I fail to find this exact wording. It appears that it is not even profesional wording, as in "No matter what". Not to say that it may be in some web site somewhere. Dont think its in the Official Amsoil web site. Also, with the new separation of the two 100:1 oils, motorcycles and weed eaters would not be in the same paragraph along with outboards. Anyway, I wont insist on the 100;1 ratio anyway. Even I used the old 100:1 years ago at 80:1 because I felt that because I was running at WOT most of the time it would be better. I tell people to run the 100:1 Saber oil at 1 bottle to five gallons of gas. The product works fine at that ratio in "ANY" stock outboard engine. The fact remains, that if the 100:1 oils bother you, then run the HP Injector at 50:1. Again, what people fail to address is that there isnt as much solvent added to the 100:1 oil, therefore, it really isnt a true 100:1 mix anyway, thats why it isnt an injector oil. And, to add a little fuel to the fire, that little engine was not a high performance engine and I dont care how long you ran it at WOT, at 100:1, it would not have blown up. There is just something here we dont know about.

ZmOz · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Being one of the few here who has ran an engine HARD on about 1000:1 non synthetic oil, I can tell you that 2 strokes need surprisingly little lubrication. My inline 6 ran for a good 5 minutes at WOT without a hint of a problem with no oil. It died and I went another 5 minutes at WOT before I realized my mistake. At this point I added oil and started it up again - RPMs were a little low for a few minutes but after that it ran fine for the rest of the day...only to have the distributor break down later.

Upon disassembly, 5 of 6 cylinders look *ALMOST* new! In most the crosshatching was still completely visible. #3 was pretty badly scuffed up, but I can't say it wasn't that way before I forgot the oil. Given that, I think 100:1 with Amsoil will protect just fine, but I agree at that point it doesn't give you superior protection, just equal protection to other oils at 50:1. If I wasn't such a cheap b@stard I'd probably run it at about 70:1. If you DO have an oil related problem while using one of their products, Amsoil will BUY YOU A NEW ENGINE!

LubeDude · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

ZMOZ: What did your bearings look like?

accord_guy · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

I ran 100:1 Amsoil for many years in an 85hp Force. I ran it hard and never any problems. Last I knew the current owner was doing the same thing. It sure cuts down on the smoke compared to 50:1 Merc oil. Seeing the opinion of Force outboards, I would expect it to be the last outboard to do well. (I think it was a great engine if cared for properly)

ZmOz · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by LubeDude: ZMOZ: What did your bearings look like?

Not bad at all. I wouldn't hesitate to use them again. This is the rod bearing from the cylinder that was scuffed up: (more reason to believe it might have been scuffed up before this happened)

Now that I'm thinking about it, I might even lighten up on the 32:1 I normally use this summer...

LubeDude · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by ZmOz: Not bad at all. I wouldn't hesitate to use them again. [/QB]

My point exactly, the fact that Willys brother had his whole engine go to He*l in a hand bascket is suspect to me, I suspect it had serious problems already for it to blow up as it did. Like I said, we all dont know the whole picture here.

TheOilDoc · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

By LubeDude: I have access to all of Amsoils liturature, an I fail to find this exact wording. It appears that it is not even profesional wording, as in "No matter what". Not to say that it may be in some web site somewhere. Dont think its in the Official Amsoil web site.

You can find that exact wording used as Amsoil marketing and advertising HERE (second paragraph) and HERE (under Application Recommendation). Notice Amsoil claims this 100:1 oil meets NMMA TC-W3, but it is not listed or certified with the NMMA as such. Although Amsoil might get it to meet the NMMA's testing, I doubt they can do it at 100:1 ratios. But you certainly have the choice to run it that way if you want.

DJ · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Come on folks, no more fights-PLEASE!

ZmOz · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Here's a shot of one of the pistons. A little dirty from sitting around my garage for a year, but otherwise in almost new condition.

TheOilDoc · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Not in this discussion to argue DJ. Just clearing up the skepticism from member LubeDude. As members know, I post credible information.

LubeDude · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by TheOilDoc: You can find that exact wording used as Amsoil marketing and advertising

Just as I thought, this is "NOT" the Official Amsoil site, this is just another dealer and its his wording. Here is the Official Amsoil site. Amsoil Knowone ever said that the Amsoil products were certified, youre just trying to stir things up. And DJ, We are not fighting, I think this is as civil as it gets, We are just clarifying miss information. See, look at my face.

LubeDude · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by TheOilDoc: Not in this discussion to argue DJ. Just clearing up the skepticism from member LubeDude. As members know, I post credible information.

This is true usually, but this time you are just here to cause trouble. You are adding nothing to the discusion.

pwiseman · May 19, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by myoutboards: hey paul, who said those motors should be 24:1 i believe that the propper mix is 50:1 just a thought

Brain lapse. I was just mixing for my chainsaw, and got it mixed up. Your are right about the ratio being 50:1. I have been running it between 75:1 and 100:1 and experimenting. I also have to say that the power foam amsoil makes is awesome. I have to chuckle about the back and forth here. I have a lot of faith in the amsoil products and they are very helpful with recommondations and upfront on warranty issues. Just bought a new Honda 30 Thinking on running amsoil, but I don't see as strong of a reason to run synthetic on a 4 stroke. I will probably wait for warranty to expire and then go synthetic.

BillP · May 21, 2005

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Re: How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls

Originally posted by Paul Wiseman: I have to chuckle about the back and forth here. I have a lot of faith in the amsoil products and they are very helpful with recommondations and upfront on warranty issues. Just bought a new Honda 30 Thinking on running amsoil, but I don't see as strong of a reason to run synthetic on a 4 stroke. I will probably wait for warranty to expire and then go synthetic. [/QB]

The question is do I really want to post this or skip it? Coin flipped heads up so here it is... In my mind it isn't whether Amsoil is a good or bad oil because it appears to work like most other oils. However, I've yet to see multiple posts (actually not even one) of running 2000-3000 hrs with it. Commercial guys have been doing 2000-3000 hrs for 20-30 years with BIA/NMMA TCW oils under hard use. Most (99.99%)commercial guys I see are still running TCW-3. A few seasons and few hundred hrs with Amsoil or any other oil is nothing spectacular to brag about IMHO. MY problem is Amsoil wasn't officially certified as a TCW-3 oil last time I looked. Most motor mfgs spec certified oils and they work A1. Claims of running great, etc with Amsoil can be matched everyday by TCW-3 oils. Good or bad, I just can't see a good enough reason not to follow mfg specifications exactly as written. Easy now, this is just personal thoughts and not a bash on your favorite oil. bp

How many of you out there have run synth at 100:1 in an outboard that calls for

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