How much do I need?

[swimmin' for shore]

I have a few questions, actually. One at a time.<br />I'm restoring a 1967 Formula. It's 21' long, approximately 6 1/2 feet wide. My planned usage for this boat is some saltwater fishing in the Puget Sound, with light use-a weekend boat. The stringers are fine. The transom requires some repair, at least at the bottom, and the posts here have offered me enough different options to deal with that. I'm 3 months from being at home, though, and I'm using the time to study out procedures and methods. I've begun to purchase some of my materials and the tools I don't have through ebay, trying to save money. I had about 4,000 dollars figured from start to finish, with motor work and tools. I decided to try and cut that by as much as possible by shopping like a woman, price comparing and such. <br />Now, I've come to the floor. I'd like to do this right, and do it once. Whether I keep it or resell it, it's important to me to build this deck to last. I'll tell you all what I'm planning, and I'd appreciate if you'd correct me on anything I have wrong, and set me straight on a few other things.<br />With the deck, how much epoxy should I be looking to buy? Are there great differences in different grades of epoxy resin? Like many other things, I can purchase this on ebay for a much lower price, but if it isn't going to last, I'll go with something pricier from my local marina after I get home. I was looking at 1/2" marine grade ply, figuring that by the time I added 2 or 3 layers of glass, it would be sturdy, and would save a good bit of money in the meantime. <br />Secondly, what kind of cloth do I want to put down(weight)? My shopping list on this includes the resin and hardener, microbubbles, and glass fibers for thickening up the mixture. My thoughts have been to get the final coat down nice and smooth, sand and paint it, and then add a layer of non-skid to it. I thought this would look a good bit better than carpet. <br />I think that covers it, at least for the time being. Any help anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

mines a 23 footer, and im probly gonna end up using 6-8 gallons poly resin, 140.00 vs 500.00 for epoxy resin and seems to be very strong and adheres well too, 1/2 inch ply is okay for the top, as long as youve got 4 lb foam suppporting it underneath, if you use 5/8 ply, you could use 2lb foam no matter what, must use foam, its what ties it all together and gives structure when complete. Plus gives you something to sit in while waiting to be rescued if you ever get swamped. Others please correct me if im wrong on accounta im no expert, just kinda what i figured out as i went on my own project, as i have not yet got to the foaming stage, or bought ply for the top.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

ps I used all exterior grade plywood, as some of the good people of florida seem to be quite wastefull and threw away ALOT of plywood they took off thier windows after the hurricane season, so the only ply I had to spend money on was the 3/4 inch used for stringers everything else was free ( i did have to go garbage picking) oh well free is free I like free. although i will probly have to purchase two sheets for the top of the floor

 

[CTD]

Re: How much do I need?

The lowest cost epoxy I have found is at US Composites http://www.uscomposites.com/ I used 1/2 inch ac plywood glued to the stringers with epoxy, all surfaces were treated with resin to waterproof them. I found that if I bought a large amount of epoxy from us composites at one time I could get it for about 5 or 6 dollars a gallon more than poly at the local stores. Use foam where you can to help support the floor and if your stingers are far apart use the 4 lb or add extra stringers. I added extra cross braces while building in ice boxes and storage so I used 2lb. I only used one layer of 6oz cloth on the floor to seal it but used 2 layers of 18oz roven at the edges plus the 6oz cloth. I also put my plywood down in 4 ft sections and glassed the bottom to the stringers for as far as I could reach for added strength. Then I foamed that section before starting on the next 4 ft. I think I used about 10 gallons total, the transom took 3 gallons by itself.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

my local stores price for poly-16.95/gal<br />for epoxy 66.95 gallon i checked us composites also, and they could not compete when you add the cost of shipping to poly, they offer epoxy with no shipping charges

 

[lawyertob]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by swimmin' for shore:<br /> I was looking at 1/2" marine grade ply, figuring that by the time I added 2 or 3 layers of glass, it would be sturdy,

Swimmin',<br /><br />My Friendly Neighborhood Specialty Plywood Guy, told me that marine plywood is not necessary for the floors. According to him, you would use marine in a transom (if you use wood) because of its very high compressive strength. IOW, there are next to no voids in it, so it doesn't crush when you spot torque the engine mounting bolts.<br /><br />He suggested either Dricon treated or Wolmanized plywood for the deck. Either type should be kiln dried after treatment. The price for 3/4 Dricon was around $60 a sheet. I need to call him back for the price on the Wolmanized, because I somehow didn't get a price for it. The beauty of the Wolmanized is that it doesn't lose its fungicidal and critter treatment even if it gets wet. I figure that no matter how well we glass this stuff in, sooner or later some water is going to get in there...heck, for that matter, even kiln dried plywood has over 10% moisture in it...I read that somewhere, but couldn't prove it. <br /><br />I contacted the Dricon and Wolmanize people and they said that they have not specifically tested their plywood with fiberglass resin of either type, but that they did not foresee any problems with it. I know that I have heard of people using Wolmanized for decks on here....not sure about Dricon. In either case, if you get a treated plywood, you definitely want it to be kiln dried after treatment or you will have all sorts of heartache. Keep in mind that most of this is knowledge I have gained from other people and reading on the Internet, so it may be accurate, and it may be drivel. <br /><br />All this makes me want to just put down diamond deck like we had in the Navy...of course, then I would have about 3 inches of freeboard. <br /><br />Oh yeah, I also like the idea of the 4 pound foam. It cost twice as much as the 2 pound, but it is a LOT stronger with very little loss of flotation.<br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[lawyertob]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by swimmin' for shore:<br /> . . . . I decided to try and cut that by as much as possible by shopping like a woman, price comparing and such. . . .

Swimmin',<br /><br />Yeah, but then you will spend all the money you saved on shoes... <br /><br />Couldn't resist,<br />Joe

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

Hi Guys. Good information. I thought about the diamond plate idea, Joe. I also thought it might run a little heavy. Not a bad idea, though, all the same. <br />I have to admit that you guys are calling for a lot more resin than I'd been planning on. I've really gone back and forth with this, but there was no doubt about going with epoxy, after studying this out. Cost, of course, is a concern, but it's worth the difference. The 4 lb. pourable foam was something else I'd thought over, and though I hadn't come to a decision on it yet, you guys have convinced me. I'll look some of that up, too. <br />I'm hoping someone can give me a basic rule of thumb for different cloth...ie...the heaver the ounces, the smoother or stronger, etc...In other words, what cloth is going to offer me a nice smooth finish which I can paint over and add non-skid to? <br />Thanks everyone for all of the information. Joe, I have to disagree with you about the shoes. No matter how much money I save, I don't think having a boat is ever going to leave me with an extra dollar again. I may have to walk barefoot after this project.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

i used poly resin on my whole project and seems to be very strong, couldnt justify the price of epoxy seeins how they used poly from the factory and it lasted 20 years, the way i rebuilt it it should last alot longer than that, the factory relied on the foam for struture more than they should have IMHO. i am using 2lb foam, i probly don't need it for structure, just the safety factor

 

[ThomWV]

Re: How much do I need?

For goodness sakes don't use Polyester resin. It doesn't bond to wood for ...., and if you compound that by using some sort of treated wood I can picture the stuff in my mind peeling off within a month. Just use marine 3/4" plywood soaked in epoxy and then painted to suit. Also use your anti slip stuff (take a look at the stuff Interlux makes) of choice. Oh, simply apply two coats of epoxy to the already cut out floor sections, sand between coats. No cloth or matt required, not thickner either for that matter. There are all manner of private small suppliers of epoxy who sell at prices far below what marina's get. Don't forget the price of hardner too, because it can certainly add up. I'd use nothing but slow set hardner, maybe even going to a 'tropical' mix just to allow the maximum time for the epoxy to soak into the wood. I get my stuff from Raka ( www.raka.com ) but other guys have their favorites. From what you've described I'd immagine you could do it with under 2 gallons. Just make sure you have it cut and have already done your trial fit first. Make sure all the holes are drilled and all the bracket mounts already in place then removed.<br /><br />Let me say that again about polyester. Don't use it. The cheap price is the only thing the stuff has going for it and you pay for that cheap price in the end.<br /><br />Thom

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

hummm

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

alot of people here use poly with favorable results espescially if pre treated wood with styren thinned poly resin first, soaked real good into wood alot of boats come from the factory using poly resin however treated wood is not advised

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by Joe Glastron T186:<br />

The beauty of the Wolmanized is that it doesn't lose its fungicidal and critter treatment even if it gets wet. I figure that no matter how well we glass this stuff in, sooner or later some water is going to get in there...

Ohh,,, buddy,,, I gotta warn ya. Don't be talking about Wolmanized plywood around here.<br /><br />Last time I did, and presented my case for why I've used it exclusevily on my re-builds:<br /><br />The purists came for me like the villagers did for the Frankinstein Monster after he went into town and got into mischief.<br /><br />It was terrible. In my nightmares,,, I can still see them coming up the hill with thier torches......... and the chanting,, ohh gosh..<br /><br />I may need therapy.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

I understand that different iboaters are going to have different opinions. Having not used either type of resin, I've spent a lot of time studying this out and, despite the higher cost, have made a decision to go with epoxy resin. No question about it. Thom, I appreciate your thoughts here, but I can't see getting by with only 2 gallons of resin, since I'm going to have to fair and fillet the sides of the deck all the way around. As far as not using cloth goes, will I be able to get the same smooth finish without cloth? I'm only doing this beast once, so I want it to look good at the end. What I'm considering here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to purchase my filler from http://stores.ebay.com/Orions-Pyramid , as it's rather inexpensive. The gentleman assures me that this epoxy filler will be compatible with any other epoxy. Then, I was thinking 2 more gallons or so of thinner "laminating" resin", with enough cloth to apply 2 layers, and 3 on the edges. My figuring is that after I lay the 2nd diagonal layer of wetted cloth, to allow it to cure, and add thin coats of resin until it's smoothed over, sanding between coats. A final sand, and then paint, after the final cure. <br />Now that you know what I'm looking at, am I missing anything here? If what I have is correct, the only thing left is the type of cloth to use. I know there will be different opinions here, but the only one I have so far is 6 oz. cloth, with 18 oz. roving on the edges. I cringe to say this, but if anyone has a reason why these 2 should not be joined, speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

Winger, that's funner than you know what. I didn't get it until after mine posted and came back up. I had the best laugh I've had in weeks. I love the assortment of different opinions here, but I've seen some people get downright fightin mad about what products to use. I just try and watch, learn, and make the best decision for me.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

good one wingered ROFL by the way, the stuff that guy is selling on ebay is a paste not a liquid, if your going to use fiberglass at all, that stuff doesnt soak into fiberglass its used more for filling holes and fairing the edges. if thats what ya need great, but it doesnt seem like it would work for the whole project. 45.00 for 3 gallons sounds cheap. Just remeber if it sounds to good to be true it probly is.

 

[lawyertob]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by swimmin' for shore:<br /> What I'm considering here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is to purchase my filler from http://stores.ebay.com/Orions-Pyramid , as it's rather inexpensive.

Swimmin',<br /><br /> I am thinking about buying some of that paste from the same guy. It seems like it would work for fairing the edges. Only thing is that I can't use epoxy filler if I am using poly resin. In any case, I think I only need about 1 gallon. If I get it, I will let you know how it worked...and might even make you a deal on what I have left.<br /><br />Another $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

See Joe, that's how friends are made. Also, fix your transom with seacast. If you get out in open water and sink, call me and let me know. <br />Seriously, I was considering doing the same thing you are. I figured it would be great for fairing the edges, and then I could get any other epoxy for just doing the wood and glassing up the sides. If you do buy, please do let me know how it goes. Also, you don't have to buy in 3 gallon buckets. He sells, for just a little less, 2 gallons at a time, and mentioned to me in an email that he'd be switching to single gallons in the next few weeks. I think he may have been pushing me to buy 3 now, though.

 

[CTD]

Re: How much do I need?

Here's another 2 cents, On my boat it had about a half inch clearance between the floor and the hull when I got it so I put it back that way, it also had 1 layer of 18 oz roven and some spray in mix forming a slightly flexible joint. It made sense to me to not have a totaly rigid joint at the floor. I think what they were doing is making a wider joint that allowed the stress to gradually dissapate rather than having a sharp defined edge. Your fairing will do pretty much the same thing. Biaxial cloth would be stronger than the roveing but its a pain to wet out and takes a lot of resin to do so. Thats 4 cents worth now. still just an opinion.

 

[CTD]

Re: How much do I need?