How much do I need?

[lawyertob]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by CTD:<br /> Here's another 2 cents, On my boat it had about a half inch clearance between the floor and the hull when I got it so I put it back that way, it also had 1 layer of 18 oz roven and some spray in mix forming a slightly flexible joint. It made sense to me to not have a totaly rigid joint at the floor. I think what they were doing is making a wider joint that allowed the stress to gradually dissapate rather than having a sharp defined edge. Your fairing will do pretty much the same thing. Biaxial cloth would be stronger than the roveing but its a pain to wet out and takes a lot of resin to do so. Thats 4 cents worth now. still just an opinion.

CTD,<br /> Now that you mention it, my floor had about a 1/2 inch gap too. They bridged the gap with a layer or two of cloth in kind of a "J" shape. IOW, the glass dropped down before curving up onto the hull. It made a little bit of a channel for in case water got on top of the floor, it would channel it to the rear.<br /><br />Maybe I should put it back the same way. Though I must say that about half of the outside edge had broken where the glass met the floor. There is no support on the outside edge of the floor currently. This is the main reason I am putting 4# foam under the outside sections of the floor for support.<br /><br />Oh well, not trying to steal the thread...but Swimmin' is going to copy everything I do anyway. <br /><br />Loose change,<br />Joe

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

Joe's right. We've had this discussion. Steal whatever you want. Another submariner already beat you to my ex-wife, though. Sorry.<br />Originally, when I started this, I talked to someone about keeping a little flexibility between the hull and the floor. As a matter of common sense, this seems reasonable. Also, I am wondering if I shouldn't lay some mat? under the edges of the deck, where it will be resting on the hull. Any thoughts on that? Joe, you just keep posting your progress reports. I'm printing them out later. Whether you stick with the boat or turn it into a sub, I'm going to know what to do either way. <br />Thaks all for all of the great input thus far.

 

[BillP]

Re: How much do I need?

Here's my opinion and 02.<br /><br />On projects like yours, standard 18oz or 24oz woven roving cloth alternated with 1.5oz or 3oz mat is fine. Many boats are still mfg with these due to their overall good attributes. I prefer their bulk over biaxials.<br /><br />Resin quantity...One oz of resin for every oz of cloth. Cloth is measured by the square yard. Get the square yds in oz and that is oz of resin needed.<br /><br />Mat is measured by the square ft and it takes about 2 oz of resin per square ft oz of mat.<br /><br />Mat for epoxy has a different binder (to hold the fibers together) than mat for polyester. IF you use poly mat for epoxy resin it will be difficult or impossible to wet out. That is the industry standard and a fact. If in question try a sample. <br /><br />Use the correct thickness of ply for the deck instead of adding fiberglass to make it stiff. It will be lighter and cheaper this way.<br /><br />Using foam to support the floor isn't the best idea because it can compress under constant loading. Poured in foam isn't dense enough to depend on it for structure. Most boat mfgs use foam as an addition to stringers and frames but not the primary structure to support anything.<br /><br />The 1/2" gap at floor to hull joint isn't likely a planned engineering event to make the boat stronger. It gives nothing to the construction other than making it easier to fit. You don't want expandsion at that joint. <br /><br />For your non skid. Go to HomeDepot and buy a 50lb bag of playground sand for $3. Mix 10%-15% (or more) sand with your paint and roll on the next to last coat. Then roll one last coat of paint without sand to seal it. If you don't mind the tips of the off white sand showing after it wears a little, do it in the last coat.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

Thanks for all of this. Bill, this is a fantastic idea on the non-skid. It makes perfect sense, and will save me a lot of money. I really appreciate it. I'll begin my search for roven and resins pretty quickly here. Based on everyone's input, I'm looking for the 18 or 24 oz, 1.5 to 3 oz. to finish it out. I understand that this eliminates any print left from the roven. I believe I'm going to go with that paste, and as he said it would be compatible with any other epoxies, I'll get a few gallons of laminating/penetrating resin. As far as plywood goes, I'm still playing with that. There are plenty of discussions going on, and it's something that I'll have to wait on until I get home anyway. Thanks again to everyone, and if you have any more ideas, I'd love to hear them. Especially if they save money and time.

 

[ThomWV]

Re: How much do I need?

Well, then maybe it will help to think about it this way, what do the two layers of matt or cloth that you envision putting down add to the boat? Will it be more durable than just the plywood if a proper protective coating (deck paint) is applied? I don't think so. Will it be appreciably stronger in an area that required additional support? Nope, fiberglass is at its weakest in large flatpanels and in any event would not be the proper way to support an inadequate underlayment. The fiberglass in addition to plywood underlayment will be considerably heavier than just plywood, is it your desire to add weight to the boat for stability purposes? Thick plywood is much less expensive than thin plywood and fiberglass, resin cost the same amount either way. Straight plywood, soaked in resin, will require far less sanding than faired cloth or matt. I can not emphasize that one enough, FAR less sanding.<br /><br />So I would go with plywood. I do understand the rush to glass but go ahead and give a couple of moments thought to what you'd gain. I don't see much of anything.<br /><br />Thom

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

I should have added that you had me sold on thicker plywood, Thom. I'll go with either 5/8 or 3/4. I figured to add a couple of layers of glass to it, but for looks and hopefully lenghth of service, rather than stability. Besides that, I know that glass is the best way to secure it to the sides. I don't mind the extra time sanding, but I'll plan to keep it to a minimum. I'm no more a fan of dustborn glass particles than anyone else. In the meantime, part of my funds have been set aside for the express purpose of safety. After I finish, I believe I'll go with a 2 part poly for the deck, and follow Ed's suggestions for my non-skid surfaces. By the time we're done, everyone will have a piece of this one. I'm betting I'll still have the piece that includes labor and cost, though.

 

[a_bullfrog_a]

Re: How much do I need?

i use emty 20 oz soda bottles with a drop of water & an alka seltser (recap quick) to repressurize then glued in place with great stuff foam.

 

[lawyertob]

Re: How much do I need?

Originally posted by a_Bullfrog_a:<br /> i use emty 20 oz soda bottles with a drop of water & an alka seltser (recap quick) to repressurize then glued in place with great stuff foam.

Hey Swimmin,<br /><br /> I'm not trying to steal the thread (which is why I put my long winded explanation in a separate thread) but I wanted to make sure that you don't do the bottle idea. It sounded great when I first heard of the idea, but a little study and some calculations make me think that not only is it structurally a bad idea, but that it also does not necessarily save money. Anyway, the thread where I discuss it is here Joe's long winded foam thread . I would be interested to hear your opinion after you read it.<br /><br />Just my $0.02 worth,<br />Joe

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: How much do I need?

Joe, I'd never think you were stealing my thread. You might take advantage of my thread as a chance to accuse me of being a "target", but I'd do the same with your threads to accuse you of living in a metal tube where only couples come up. We're on much better terms than to accuse each other of stealing. Weren't you going to adopt me and leave me your boat, by the way? Whatever happened to that? I'd make a wonderful son, if a little mouthy.

 

[prockvoan]

Re: How much do I need?

I would go with 1/2" treated plywood for the floor.Been there 5 times and did it that way,first boat was done 15 years ago and still going.Epoxie resin?Its better then poly resin,but not for the price.Poly resin will hold just as good as epoxie if all the prep work is done first.What you can do first is,16 ozs of poly resin,add 1 1/2 oz of acetone to it to thin out the resin,mix it up good and let it sit for an hour before adding your MEK.Cut your plywood out to fit,paint the "BOTTOM" side "only" and let dry.When you go to install it,get some micro bubbles add it to some resin to make a paste.Put it on top of the stringers thick,install your flooring and screw it down.After it sets,you can remove the screws or leave them in if they are SS.From there,use some 6oz webbing tape,6" to 8" wide,Glass all seams.Come back after its set,flare out with flaring compound,sand after dry.From there you can use 12oz webbing on the floor,1 coat and then 1 coat of 2oz matt.Now here comes the big one.Order a gal of gelcoat with "Wax".Mix it as you would as resin with MEK.Use a very good 1/4" nap roller.This will give you the best non slip surface.And yes it will dry.The trick on doing the gelcoat is,do your second coat when the first coat is almost dry,but still soft to a finger nail indent.Now,more info on epoxie resin.Its called bluing.Once you use epoxie resin and it cures over night,you are suppost to "WASH" it with soap and "Water",let it dry for your next applcation.Thats another 24+ hours.You think boat mfgs' would pay to have a work crew to sit on there backsides for every other day of work?Thats why they use poly resins,not just the cost of it.At this point,mfgs are doing 4 to as much as 8 layers at a time,its call Vacuum packing .Suppost to get all air out of in bewteen the layers of cloth and save waste resin.Me,I'm still out on that one.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: How much do I need?

i think your supposed to use styrene to thin poly resin and acetone for epoxy resin, am I wrong?

 

[prockvoan]

Re: How much do I need?

Both will do the job.Its just that styrene is hard for me to get,have to drive 50 miles one way to get it.Acetone,any hardware store has it.

 

[BillP]

Re: How much do I need?

For better bonding when glassing over old poly surfaces use styrene. Wipe the old surface down with it before glassing. It makes a chemical bond. Acetone cleans and thins ok but doesn't make a chemical bond. You can do a sample test to see the difference...and it is big. Glue several small poly parts together using only poly resin. Clean one set with styrene and another set with acetone. After the resin cures pry them apart. I did this and the styrene bond was very difficult to break...and the acetone bond very easy.