How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

[zalick]

So I used Don S. handy guide on diagnosing starter problems and determined my starter solenoid is bad. The A terminal has 12.5 volts power and the B terminal has .05 volts. The rest of the circuit: slave, breaker and ignition have the same .05 volts. Am I correct the starter solenoid is bad?

How can I remove the thing? Its tucked under the riser?? and there is minimal room to get my hands in there. I see what appear to be 3 screws in the back of the solenoid but they are odd shaped and I don't have room to get any common tools back there. Do I need to remove the riser?

Here is a picture of the screws. Any tips on how to remove the starter solenoid would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance.

 

[dubs283]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

just remove the whole starter to gain access to the solenoid, - two bolts, a few nuts holding on the wires and possibly a bracket

probably better off replacing/rebuilding the whole starter/solenoid assy judging by the rust in the photo

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

The rest of the circuit: slave, breaker and ignition have the same .05 volts. Am I correct the starter solenoid is bad?

From what you say here, no. The whole circuit appears to be dead.
You should have : slave A, 12V (battery voltage). Turn key to start, slave A,B and C should all have battery voltage, D is ground 0V. If that checks out then maybe you have a bad starter solenoid. Need a few more checks to be sure.

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

From what you say here, no. The whole circuit appears to be dead.
You should have : slave A, 12V (battery voltage). Turn key to start, slave A,B and C should all have battery voltage, D is ground 0V. If that checks out then maybe you have a bad starter solenoid. Need a few more checks to be sure.

Thanks for the info. My slave has no voltage. Looking at Don S.' diagram the battery goes to the start solenoid first and I believe I traced my lead from the battery to the starter solenoid. Wouldn't that mean the starter solenoid gets power before the slave? My slave has only the .05volts of power. My 50amp breaker, right before the slave, also has the .05 volts. Of the two solenoids, the only lead with power is the A on the starter solenoid.

 

[dubs283]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

you have a voltage issue between the main post on your starter solenoid and the circuit breaker on the engine

the slave solenoid gets its main power from the breaker which gets its power from the lead connected to the same large stud on the starter solenoid as the battery (+) cable

if you have voltage at the starter main large post but not at the circuit breaker, check both sides of the breaker (it may be tripped or faulty) - if no voltage at either terminal on the breaker, check the connection at the main starter solenoid stud

if everything looks okay (no corrosion/loose or broken wires), check continuity between the main (red) wire at the starter solenoid and the circuit breaker

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

the battery goes to the start solenoid first and I believe I traced my lead from the battery to the starter solenoid. Wouldn't that mean the starter solenoid gets power before the slave?

Dubs is right on with his diagnosis. Here is how the whole thing works: The main heavy red wire goes to the post A on the starter, this provides 12V for the rest of the electrical components on the boat. It is 12V all the time. A wire goes from there to the breaker and on to the A terminal of the slave. The ignition (and the rest of the boat electrical) should pick up its power from the protected side of the breaker. When you hit start 12v goes to the C (R/Y wire) terminal of the slave closing the circuit and provides 12v from the B terminal to the starter B terminal (R/Y wire) this activates the solenoid and closes a contact between the starter A and C and the starter spins. When the key returns to run, the slave solenoid opens and the starter stops spinning, while 12v is provided for the other boat functions. So yes the power gose to the starter first but only as the main source of electrical power, not to power the starter specifically. Hope that was not too confusing.

 

[Don S]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Do you have the square 90A fuse on the A terminal of your starter solenoid? If so, it may be blown, and the wire putting power to your slave solenoid and circiuit breaker goes to it. Do you have power to your gauges when you turn the ignition switch to run?

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Thanks for the responses. Don S - you were 100% correct. My 90 amp fuse was completely corroded and blown. There must have been just enough corroded pieces touching for the small voltage to jump across giving me the .05 volts on the rest of the circuit.

My fuse was one solid block, not a fuse and block. I'm headed to West Marine tomorrow to buy a new fuse block w/ an 80amp fuse. They don't have 90s.

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Do you have the square 90A fuse on the A terminal of your starter solenoid? If so, it may be blown, and the wire putting power to your slave solenoid and circiuit breaker goes to it. Do you have power to your gauges when you turn the ignition switch to run?

Replaced the fuse and now when I turn key to start position there is a noise coming from the engine every 10 seconds or so. Sounds like an electric motor cycling. I think this is The fuel pump because is also pumping gas into carb during this process. I did not try starting the engine for fear of breaking something.

Is my starter or solenoid bad? Fuel pump relay?

Thanks again for everyone's advice and help!

 

[Don S]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Do you have any of the wires or terminals touching any other terminals on the starter? Are they hooked up to the right terminals?

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Do you have any of the wires or terminals touching any other terminals on the starter? Are they hooked up to the right terminals?

The battery lead is on A separated by an new 80amp fuse block. On top of the fuse block are the other red and orange. The yellow is on B. So everything looks right.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

a noise coming from the engine every 10 seconds or so. Sounds like an electric motor cycling. I'd this my starter running? The fuel pump is also pumping gas into the during this process. I did not try starting the engine for fear of breaking something.

Is my starter or solenoid bad?

Would a short in either cause these symptoms?

Hard to tell, could be the fuel pump running and shutting off.

No way to tell yet, need to do some more tests.

A short would blow your fuse again. More likely an open circuit. Get out your voltmeter. key off, 12v on slave A? no- clean your connections Yes: key to start (slave should click) 12V on AB&C your slave is OK, 0V C switch bad? 0V B slave bad. If switch and slave OK check for 12V on starter B with key to start (should click) 0V bad connection 12V bad starter solenoid likely. Check and see that you did not blow the fuse again, if you did you have a serious short somewhere suspect starter.

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Hard to tell, could be the fuel pump running and shutting off.

No way to tell yet, need to do some more tests.

A short would blow your fuse again. More likely an open circuit. Get out your voltmeter. key off, 12v on slave A? no- clean your connections Yes: key to start (slave should click) 12V on AB&C your slave is OK, 0V C switch bad? 0V B slave bad. If switch and slave OK check for 12V on starter B with key to start (should click) 0V bad connection 12V bad starter solenoid likely. Check and see that you did not blow the fuse again, if you did you have a serious short somewhere suspect starter.

Terry -
With key in start I have 12v on A but none on B or C on the slave.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

With key in start I have 12v on A but none on B or C on the slave.

You have no voltage coming from your ignition switch. Try this: with the switch off, with insulated wire CAREFULLY briefly jumper from A to C on the slave. The slave should close and the starter should turn. At the least the slave should click or the starter solenoid should click. If the starter turns the engine you have a problem with the ignition switch circuit.

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

You have no voltage coming from your ignition switch. Try this: with the switch off, with insulated wire CAREFULLY briefly jumper from A to C on the slave. The slave should close and the starter should turn. At the least the slave should click or the starter solenoid should click. If the starter turns the engine you have a problem with the ignition switch circuit.

Terry -
I jumped it and the engine started to turn over. I turned the key off and back on. No power to the dash anymore and the 80amp fuse is blown.

Is there a way to verify the bad starter without removing it? Or should I just have an expert fix it now. Thanks for all the help. I've learned a ton about my ignition/starter system!

Todd

 

[dubs283]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

the fuse is blown due to (+) voltage applied directly to ground either through a component (starter motor) or faulty/incorrect wiring

take a look here for some more good info on your starting system:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167035

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Well that is progress.... I guess. Your slave is OK but you have a HUGE short somewhere, most likely your starter. You drew better than 80 amps, so that would have melted most any of the smaller wires. Take a close look at all of the wiring, to see if anything looks like it got hot, use your nose too LOL. Time to pull the starter and have it checked out. The dash went dead when the fuse went, so no problem there, just got to check out the ignition switch. There may be a fuse there somewhere that went or it could be a loose connection or the switch. Should have it working in no time

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Well that is progress.... I guess. Your slave is OK but you have a HUGE short somewhere, most likely your starter. You drew better than 80 amps, so that would have melted most any of the smaller wires. Take a close look at all of the wiring, to see if anything looks like it got hot, use your nose too LOL. Time to pull the starter and have it checked out. The dash went dead when the fuse went, so no problem there, just got to check out the ignition switch. There may be a fuse there somewhere that went or it could be a loose connection or the switch. Should have it working in no time

Thanks Terry! Are Sierra starters quality? Do you have any recommendations for a replacement starter?

 

[stonyloam]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

I guess I don't know enough about them to say. I think they are pretty much all made in China anymore. If you are talking about the permanent magnet gear reduction (PMGR) type, I use one in my 470 and it works just fine. Very inexpensive, check out e-bay. You could have yours rebuilt, but new pmgr probably much less than rebuild.

 

[zalick]

Re: How to remove starter solenoid from 1999 Trophy 2052 w/ 4.3L Merc

Time to pull the starter and have it checked out.

The starter bolts are on tight and under the engine. They are frozen on a bit so I sprayed with Tri-Flow lubricant. Letting it sit for a few hours then trying again tonight.

Any tips on removing tough bolts? I have limited space and an odd angle for gaining torque. I'm terrified of stripping the bolt head! I don't think I have enough space below the bolt for an electric/pneumatic tool.