hydrafoil and trim tabs

[sean16921]

does having the hydrafoil stabilizer and bennet trim tabs counteract with each other? curious to know because i will take the stabilizer off if so

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Possibly, but take of the foil, you probably don't need it.

 

[dan t.]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

I run a stingray hydrofoil on my bayliner 2452 along with bennet trim tabs,the hydrofoil gives stern lift with a lot less drag than trim tabs,I use the tabs to#1 get on step when heaveyly loaded,#2 to keep the bow down at slower speeds in rough weather,#3 to correct for engine torque (left one only), so do some expermenting and find out what works for you, dont condem the hydro foil on someone elses word,they work

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Lose the foil it's a cheap way to achieve the results of the tabs you already have.

There is no reason to run both except confusion.

 

[joe09]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

i tried just what you said,took the hydrafoil off and the the boat did not stay on plane at lower speeds.the mpg also dropped.i put them back on the boat ran much better.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Are you using your tabs? Do they work?

Bennet tabs are not a set and forget thing like smart tabs.

You have adjust them all the way down to get up on plane and then raise them once your up.

If you slow down to where it's gonna fall back off the tabs need to be lowered again.

If you don't like adjusting them you can do the smart tab conversion and add auto actuators to your existing tabs.

There is no reason to run both and the foil absolutely causes more drag in every situation.

I know some people love them foils and yes they work on little boats but throw that thing out or sell it to another sucker at a yard sale.

 

[Jdeagro]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Joe09;

If you are using the trim tabs correctly and the boat does not stay on plane at the slower speeds then the trim tabs are too small. You should change the plates to a larger size.

If you are not using the trim tabs correctly (completely deployed on take off the gradually retracted as the spped of the boat increases) then practice.
As you slow down you should be deploying the tabs at the same time.

Often, boat builders and dealers install trim tabs that are undersize because they are concerned that boaters without experience will over correct and cause handling problems. Undersized trim tabs limit the effect.

You realy don't want to use a hydrofoil when you have trim tabs.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

More false information about foils.

I would say greater than 95% of the people that respond to a post like this have no idea what a foil (fin) will actually do, or how its supposed to be set up. If they did their answers would be much different.

They do not create more drag in every situation, when set up "correctly" they have no affect at speed, so there is no loss of speed or handling issues. Setting it up correclty on an I/O may not be possible though, it depends on the exact foil, outdrive, hull design, HP, prop and what the owner's expectations are.



They can work with tabs, which do totally different job, or on their own. The reason I say to take them off, is because for what people want help with is not what a foil will do well, few boats actually need one, tabs of some type is what they normally need.

 

[Varago]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

"I would say greater than 95% of the people that respond to a post like this have no idea what a foil (fin) will actually do, or how its supposed to be set up. If they did their answers would be much different"

That is a very strong statement. It helps to give facts when you call 95% of the people that will respond to a post like this wrong.

Dave

ps: I would bet that Jdeagro has more exp then anyone on this message board on this subject. (he runs SmartTabs)

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

In the entire time I've been on this site I think there are only two people (me being one, and the one other person has far more knowledge and experience than I do) that have responded with what a foil will actually do and how to set it up. The rest have said they either don't work, or said they do work, but use them in the wrong way and got lucky, or didn't notice the possible negative affects.

I'm not saying nobody knows how to use one, but nobody seems to post with the info.

If you know how to set one up and what it may help with, then you'll know what I mean when I say these things.


I don't mean to sound as harsh as it may come across, I just have a great dislike of misinformation and false old wives tales about anything. People need accurate information so they can decide for themselves whether or not something like this may work for them.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Actually I made a mistake, there was one other person that posted he had good results after mounting a foil and setting it up correclty (at least it sounded like he set it up correctly), this was just recently. He was flamed to no end for saying it worked.

As for Smart tabs, that's a totally different subject and they work well. the two products just don't do the same thing.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

There is no reason to use both!

To say otherwise is pure attitude and complete B.S.

To say say we don't know why people use foils is a joke.

Yes they work when set up on small boats.

No they do not work better or even close to as good as trim tabs.

Your really just continuing misinformation because your feelings are hurt that everybody doesn't agree with you.

You obviously know less than you think about tabs vs foils.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Sean also remember to trim your drive too.

 

[Jdeagro]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

Well this thread is more aggressive than it needs to be.

I think what Ondarvr is saying is that a Hydrofoil can be beneficial so long as it is set up correctly with consideration given to motor height and prop selection (as an example). I would tend to agree with him, and would liken it a wing on an Indy car.

Unfortunately most of the manufacturers of hydrofoils would lead one to believe that they will do everything correctly by simply slapping it on the cavitation plate. Hydrofoil technology is valid, but since it becomes an additional planning surface to lift the boat it needs to be carefully integrated.

In some instances you can get lucky and slap one, and go without side effects, but it is a gamble. Everyone should also determine what they expect from a hydrofoil, or anything they add to the boat. Often the expectations are not in sync with the purpose of the device.

Helm controlled trim tabs provide a host of benefits so long as the pilot understand what he wants and how to use them. One advantage is that they can be "neutralized" (retracted) so to speak if you get an unwanted handling characteristic. This can be done on the fly, which can not be done with a hydrofoil, pointing out why it is important to set it up correctly from the beginning.

The reason we make different size Smart Tabs, with different actuator pressure, and then provide for fine tuning is to address the issue of initial set up. Each boat is different and needs to be addressed appropriately.

I too hate to see improper information given out, especially when it is a vague discounting of the product.

My friend Dale H is an advocate of Hydrofoils especially for race boats of certain types. He is far more knowledgeable than I in this area.

I guess that my biggest objection to hydrofoils is the way they are marketed as a slap it on and go item.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

I agree with the misleading marketing of foils, they're advertised as a cure for just about every problem a boat may have and I don't think I've seen any place in the directions on how to set one up. As I've said before, they aren't a bolt it on go type of product.

I also only see a limited need for them, tabs would work much better for what people actually want to fix, its rare to have someone ask about an issue that a foil can really be of much help with.

As far as using both on the same boat, since they don't do the same thing, yes they can both be of value doing completely unrelated jobs, but only if needed and again that's not too common.

If I used my CC more, I'd probably put tabs on it for more control in rough water, but I think in the last 7 years its averaged about 2 hours per year on plane. I don't need to run very far to where I fish and I haven't used it in 2 years. But it does have a foil on it and its doing a job that tabs can do nothing to help with.

You mistake my frustration for anger, I'm frustrated because people make blanket statements about products (in this case a foil) based on misuse of that product and no real knowledge of what its supposed to do.


PS.
I have another boat that I use a great deal, at some times of the year I use it 5 days a week. I will be putting tabs on it this year because that's the tool needed to help do what I want done, a foil would be of no value in this application

 

[Hitech]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

What does a hydrofoil do? I always thought that it provided lift which helped get the boat on plane faster and easier. Tabs do that also. If they don't do that, what do they do? I'm not being condescending, I'm actually asking.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

I made a couple of mistakes in my previous posts. One was to make it sound like NSB was the one who I was talking about when I said "blanket statements". I meant this in a more general way in the majority of responses anytime someone mentions a foil. So I ment no disrespect for you.

The other mistake was in saying there were only three members posting with any knowledge in how a foil should be used, It's also apparent that Jdeargo is familiar with the setup too, so there are four.

I'd like to have one of the nay sayers post on what a foil can do and on the proper setup to show they have an understanding of the product before they say it doesn't work, or at least help. If you don't know what the objective is, how can you say it doesn't work.

I also want to repeat that the vast majority of boats don't need them and when used on these boats there may be negative affects, or at a minimum if you're lucky its just a waste of money.

 

[dan t.]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

as I said I run both, I have tried a doel fin brand ( the boat came with it),wasnt impressed,took it off and tried it out for the weekend. the results: slower time to plane, higher planing speed,more fuel consumtion, constant fiddling with the trim tabs,(yes I know how to use trim tabs,this is not the first boat I have had with them). installed the stingray hydrofoil and am happy with the results,lost 1 knot top speed, gained fuel milage,exelent time to plane,stable ride at cruise (20 knots)

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

So ondavr what was the answer to hitech's question?

I don't see why the fin lovers on here go to such extents to complain about any post relating to them.

It's constant, every chance they can get.

Even comments about how everyone must sell smart tabs or something. Yes the guy from smart tabs is from smart tabs, No none of the rest of us are, we do try to give good advice though, and if we can steer someone away from what has to be the common mistake in boat (slapping a foil of all different designs that promise the world) into avoiding it and only spending another $30-$40 more to get a great product that will do what they want????

So seriously back to hitech's question what do foils do? How is that better than tabs? Why would you ever want to run both?

Hey Dan if you can't get the tabs to do it all as mentioned above by Jdeagro you should see if your tabs are undersized. If they are you should check out putting larger ones on and losing the foil.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: hydrafoil and trim tabs

You've got it wrong when you say fin lovers, I have no more love for fins than I do for tabs, they're both just tools, its the lack of understanding of how they should be used that's the problem. My preference is that neither one would be needed, but I see tabs as a much more useful product.

I hear the emotional part more on the side of the fin haters, as soon as somebody says it did what they wanted, or that one could even possibly be useful, they get five responses of how evil they are and more often than not both sides are basing their opinions on misuse of the product.

I don't defend fins when its not the right tool for the job, and it rarely is the tool needed for what the boat owner wants to do. If you look back at my posts I normally say to take it off and that tabs are what they need.


And for hitech's question, well, anybody that claims a fin is junk and of no value in any application should really know all those details before they can make that claim. So I'm waiting to see if someone else will answer it right now.

If you look back on this topic you'll see I've already answered it several times.