Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

[QC]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

Tomato,<br /><br />Good points. But there ain't none of what you describe in the large infrastructure examples here yet. I completely understand that fuel cells are available today. I believe they use conventional fuels and then a reformer to make hydrogen. I am not down on fuel cells, it is this fantasy of widely available Hydrogen that perplexes me.<br /><br />Also, just because you swap out the tanks does not eliminate the cost of compression or liquefaction. There are people that believe what you describe is 5 years away. They are on serious drugs. The so called Hydrogen economy is at a minimum 50 - 100 years away . . .<br /><br />The thing that cracks me up is no one is disputing that Hydrogen is more explosive than gasoline, yet I would submit that if gasoline was discovered today it would never be approved for vehicles due to the safety concerns.<br /><br />BTW, all energy is solar

 

[CJY]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

BTW, all energy is solar

Nice point, but wrong. <br /><br />Sound energy is solar energy??? What??? Then why do we have so many forms of energy if it is all solar?<br /><br />The Sun may be the initial source of energy for all that grows, but sound, heat, mechanical, chemical and other energy forms are not necessarily solar. Solar is a combination of light and heat(radiation).<br /><br />Solar energy may be needed to grow the plants we eat, but we consume it as chemical energy.

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

The infrastructure comes as a matter of oil being over a set price per barrel. Then the cost to put in other infrastructures starts to even out or even become much more realistic.<br /><br />Again the 1st uses will be in providing homes, which is the cost of putting in pipe lines like natural gas lines into place.<br /><br />While putting in the pipe lines is a high cost over the 100 years the lines will exist the cost is very low.<br /><br />Or again you just start putting hydro substations out.<br /><br />The 5 years come NOT from lack of production but from DEMAND for energy. China, India are becoming consumers like the good old USA. So the demand for energy is going to go up dramatically in the next few years. <br /><br />The choice will either be to drill for more oil or to put into place alternative systems. Again the alternative systems are based on a known ROI <br /><br />there are also fuel cells that use natural gas instead of pure hydgrogen <br /><br />There are fortune 100 companies selling fuel cells right now. Again the uses of a fuel cell are quite varied.<br /><br />As the price of oil goes up then companies will be "mfg" hydrogen just like coal and oil companes do today

 

[CJY]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

[/quote]

I would submit that if gasoline was discovered today it would never be approved for vehicles due to the safety concerns

Very true, we would be using Hydrogen. <br /><br />

The thing that cracks me up is no one is disputing that Hydrogen is more explosive than gasoline

I'm not sure of the point. Do you want someone to disagree with this? Do you want someone to say, so what if it is, I don't care? Do you want someone to say, wow, let's not use it?<br /><br />Gasoline, used 500 years ago would be even more dangerous than it is today. As with all that is dangerous, technology will help to eliminate some of those dangers, or at least make it safer. Can you say Chernobyl. It certainly did not shut nuclear power down.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

Originally posted by CJY:<br />Nice point, but wrong.

I believe his point was all energy originates from the sun. Oil is solar powered. Coal is solar powered. Every source of energy known to man is from the sun in one way or another.

 

[CJY]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

There is a big diff between the two Zm. I don't assume what another post means. I read what is stated.<br /><br />Furthermore, he was trying to make a point to BTW, it was an incorrect point in need of being pointed out. It was not just a random statement.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

Originally posted by CJY:<br />it was an incorrect point in need of being pointed out.

Not really. Like I said, all energy on this planet originates from the sun, thus, everything is solar power. He was commenting on tomatolord's post, "In essence corn is solar power". Going by that, everything is solar power. His post was not incorrect at all.<br /><br />If you take everything you read to be 100% literal you shouldn't be reading internet forums.

 

[CJY]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

If you take everything you read to be 100% literal you shouldn't be reading internet forums.

That's funny because I would say if you make assumptions on these forums, you should not be reading them.<br /><br />

Like I said, all energy on this planet originates from the sun, thus, everything is solar power.

Zm, you are 100% incorrect.<br /><br />Scenario: Asteroid flying through space crashes through our atmosphere and into our planet. The asteroid strikes our planet with a great amount of kinetic energy which is transformed into heat, sound and light energy upon impact. What do any of these forms of energy have to do with the Sun????? <br /><br />You are confusing the fact that all of life is sustained with energy from the Sun with "all energy originates from the Sun" which is not true.

 

[QC]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

Originally posted by ZmOz:<br /> He was commenting on tomatolord's post, "In essence corn is solar power". Going by that, everything is solar power. His post was not incorrect at all.

Thanks Z. Yes.<br /><br />CJY,<br /><br />My point about hydrogen being more explosive than gasoline was related to the point you commented on just before it. If H is more explosive than gasoline AND you agree that gasoline would not be approved due to it's combustibility then it follows that on board Hydrogen storage would not be approved for vehicle use either . . .

 

[Bondo]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

The first uses of hydrogen will be at the home, where you will have a fuel cell to produce the electricity that the home needs.

What can any of you fellas tell Me about this,.........<br /><br />With this house I'm rebuilding,.... I diffinetly can see some sort of Geothermal system in it,......<br />I can see a few hurtles that I'll need to jump,... But nothing I can't figure out,+ get around......<br /><br />While doing some research on Photovoltic Systems,+ the Tax issues with Alternate Energy,.....<br /><br />I see that NY has a credit available for "Home-based" Fuel Cell Technoligy,...???...<br /><br />How dos it Work,+ Who builds them,.???<br />Anybody have any links,..???....<br /><br />There's only a 2 year window on the Federal Tax credits,... NY seems to be an open ended credit that's been ava. since 1997......<br /><br />I want to get the money Spent while the credits Are available,......<br />Even if I have to build the house around these systems,... Instead of building the systems around my new house.......

 

[PW2]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

As many have stated, H fuel cells are available today. FTR, there is no combustion involved with H fuels cells. It is a chemical reaction with O2 (from the air) that produces H2O and heat, which is converted to electricity.<br /><br />There are certainly hurdles that need to be overcome:<br /><br />1. Ice. Stored H is of necessity under high pressure, and when that pressure is released, it gets very cold. Since H20 is a natural byproduct of this process, ice will be a real issue.<br /><br />2. H is the most common element on Earth, but it rarely exists by itself. It takes significant amounts of energy to separate the H molecule from the various compounds it exists with. That energy has to come from somewhere. The most logical source of that energy, at least in the quantities required, will be nuclear.<br /><br />3 And, of course, a massive infrastructure would need to be built.<br /><br />If this is determined to be the answer, then it is years and years down the road, with huge investments required. Private corporations may play with this some, but are not going to invest the money required to make it a reality with a 20 to 40 year time horizon for payback. That's not what they do.<br /><br />If it were to be done, it will be funded by government. It won't ever happen any other way.<br /><br />If we assume that fossil fuels are in fact a finite resource, then something has to be done. If not H, then what exactly? Mini Nukes that will fit in your car???<br /><br />I don't know exactly, but we'd better have a plan somewhere, backed by a serious commitment of money--instead of simple rhetoric and grand ideas of utilizing switch grass!

 

[tomatolord]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

PW2 - I disagree - companies are putting in fuel cells today in many places, like ethanol hydrogen is available only in certain areas.<br /><br />In my example above the situation given is that hydrogen will be the "battery" of tomorrow. <br /><br />There are many places across the US and Canada that can easily produce electricity - wind, water, solar - the problem is that the sites are remote and you HAVE to make electricity where it is needed NOT where it is cheapest to make.<br /><br /> http://www.h2fc.com/industry.html <br /><br />Is an excellent link about the industry.<br /><br />They have news about the 1st 10k psi stations coming on line.<br /><br />news about electric partnerships to "store" electricity.<br /><br />Even local electric companies are looking into making hydrogen at night to "store" the electricity made during low peak hours then either converting themselves back to electricity or selling the hydrogen to others.<br /><br />Tlord

 

[KaGee]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

I still think calling Stargate Command will produce more results than any of the above.<br /><br />15 years ago, the battery operated car was going to be our salvation, look where we are at today. We'll all be dead and buried, possibly our children too, before any significant technology changes our consumption of crude oil products.

 

[tommays]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

<br /><br /><br />

Scientists estimate that the methane trapped in previously known frozen reservoirs around the globe could power the world for centuries. But finding the technology to mine such deposits has proved elusive.

Now when it becomes more inportant to goverment to use are brain power on problems like this VS sending a probe to pluto we will get somewere.<br /><br />tommays

 

[alden135]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

http://centerclick.org:81/videos/archive/simpsons/electric_car_of_the_future.mov

 

[CJY]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

If H is more explosive than gasoline AND you agree that gasoline would not be approved due to it's combustibility then it follows that on board Hydrogen storage would not be approved for vehicle use either . . .<br />

I do not think it follows at all. Why? Because if fossil fuels were never discovered or they never existed, money would have been spent elsewhere. H may have had more many put into its development. Thus, we would have developed safer ways of using it as an energy source.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

LOL @ Alden!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

yall worry to much, presid4ent Bush and his handpicked planning staff has it all under control. or did you not watch the state of the union speech? why even dorothy and toto would agree with more teachers and math and science students.<br /> cant wait for it to come online next month.<br /> 250 billion spent on a well planned opereration since march of 03, another 120 billion requested for this year, 80 million asked for to plan the rebuilding of the US gulf coast. fema trailers that cost the taxpayer about 3000 a month, not bad rent on a two bedroom house on wheels.<br /><br /> yep I trust my govt to plan foor my future so all is well and its time for another long neck.<br /> no worries the govt will fix it.<br /> but I still wonder where that 89 million worth of Iraq reconstruction money went, maybe stien and bloom will give it back next week. it was all a misunderstanding anyway.

 

[CalicoKid]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

I thought we were going to Mars???<br /><br />There is an aweful lot of myth on Hydrogen fuel tossed around here. Tomatolord has a good feel for the state of the technology though. There is not a need to handle pure compressed hydrogen unless it is to be used for combustion, which in most cases it is not. Forget internal combustion, Hydrogen is for fuel cells, DC electric motors. It can be stored in much less volatile forms, methane, sugar. You don't need to burn hydrogen to get energy out of it, you just need to extract electrons through a redox chemical reaction. Either replace the electrons by plugging your car in at home, which removes pollution generation and energy production to a point source electrical plant or refuel the car with more methane or whatever it is decided they will 'run' on (again forget combustion). Hydrogen is an electrical battery not a combustible fuel.

 

[QC]

Re: Hydrogen? Dream or reality?

CalicoKid,<br /><br />I agree, except what you describe is not a vehicle powered by Hydrogen, it is a vehicle that reformulates some other fuel into hydrogen on board. How is that Hydrogen fueled?<br /><br />I 100% guarantee you that your tax dollars are currently being spent figuring out how to store compressed and liquid hydrogen on board vehicles, whether it is for use in a fuel cell or combustion doesn't matter as far as storage is concerned.<br /><br />CJY,<br /><br />My only point on the gasoline/hydrogen combustibility discussion is that safety is a huge factor with Hydrogen and the issues exceed conventional and all other alternative fuels. Whether it is pressure, temperature, permeability or combustibility, the safety factors are huge and must be addressed. This is one of the reasons that I believe whether we are discussing H piped to your home or business, or H stored in your vehicle, we are a LOOOONGGGG way off from the so called Hydrogen Economy. I am not talking about one off $2,000,000 H buses . . . which do exist, again with the help of your tax dollars.