I am puzzled.

Boomyal

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A big battle has been brewing about the exclusion of Creation as an explanation for all of the wonders that exist in our world. For many years the 'theory of evolution' has been crowding out any possibility that our world has been constructed by the hand of God.<br /><br />As of late the believers have taken a page from the tactics of the Left/non believers and coined the new term of 'intelligent design' to soften the Creation theory and allow the """"Diversity""" of 'beliefs' to get the point across that we and our surroundings did not simply emerge from the ooze of the cosmos.<br /><br />Why is it then that the liberal term of 'pro choice' is okay for the left to explain the killing and murder of conceived life, but the term 'intelligent design' is now a diabolic plot from the far right to force 'religion' down the throats of our now secular population?
 

QC

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Re: I am puzzled.

That is an interesting point Boomer. Hadn't occurred to me. The left absolutely believes that the use of the term Intelligent Design is an attempt to disguise strict Creationist views, but would vehemently deny that the term pro-choice is an attempt to make something tragic less offensive.<br /><br />However, I don't see the use of the term pro-choice as a diabolical plot. Both terms were selected because they make the position easy to understand and less offensive to those who might be offended . . . marketing. You would do that if you were pitching just about anything.<br /><br />I'll never understand the intensity of the evolution/creation thing though. Why do most arguments claim they are mutually exclusive?<br /><br />Evolution was created . . . next issue? It just seems so simple. :confused:
 

JB

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Re: I am puzzled.

What, pray tell, is Sunday School for? Is evolution addressed there?<br /><br />Science is one thing, religion is another.<br /><br />Anyone has the "choice" to send their children to Sunday school to learn about creation beliefs, or even the "Intelligent Design" theories.
 

alden135

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Re: I am puzzled.

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br /> <br />Why is it then that the liberal term of 'pro choice' is okay for the left to explain the killing and murder of conceived life, but the term 'intelligent design' is now a diabolic plot from the far right to force 'religion' down the throats of our now secular population?
Duh.
 

mrbscott19

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Re: I am puzzled.

you're right boomyal, ID is in no way, shape, or form about religion. Here's the version of ID I'd like to see being taught.<br /><br /> FSM :D <br /><br />My point is, if it's not based on sound science, keep it out of school. Yes, I understand many things in science are based on theory, but it is theory that can observed and have measurements taken. Experiments can be performed. This is not the case with ID. JB made a most excellent point, as usual.
 

QC

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Re: I am puzzled.

All I want taught in school in this regard is that we don't know . . . Evolution and science are taught as the explanation of life etc. Not just an explanation for the way life flourishes and changes.<br /><br />I'd be 100% satisfied and extremely comfortable if something like "we really don't know how all of this stuff just poofed out of nowhere" was said once in a while as a requirement. Because, in fact, that is the truth. I am OK with anybody teaching my kids the truth . . . ;)
 

JasonJ

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Re: I am puzzled.

It is not being taught that life "poofed" out of nowhere. It is being taught that life formed from the very basic building blocks when the planet was in its youngest stages of life. The theory of evolution is based on decades of work and research, and countless thousands of examples of tangeable fact, things you can hold in your hand. Evolution is based on what is seen, what is felt. <br /><br />Intelligent design is based on someone saying it happened while providing little more than speculation that it actually went that way. You can pick up any work of fiction and tell enough people its fact and eventually people will think its fact. Just look at every urban legend out there.<br /><br />I am fine with intelligent design being a part of ones faith, and being a part of Sunday school ciriculum, but teaching it in mainstream school along with evolution only leads to confusion. Kids are left with trying to figure out if life came from a primordial ooze or Jesus rode dinosaurs to church. That is only doing a diservice to our children. I know if that was going on in my school when I was a kid I would probably beg to be homeschooled until the school pulled its collective head out of its arse.<br /><br />It is our job to prepare our youth to be independant adults who are a positve functioning member or society, not to figure out more ways to push views onto them or distort their viewpoints. Just what do you think will happen to the future of science if our children are not taught proper science. Why should kids strive to be a member of the scientific community if they are taught that everything we know is bollocks and just turn to the appropriate page in the Bible for all the answers? Our young are not able to fully sift through what is crap and what is not, they just take it all in, believing everything they are told by the adults. To take advantage of that by pushing an agenda is absolutely abhorant, and is a shameful example of what society as a whole is turning into.<br /><br />We would still be in the dark ages if it wasn't for science. If we continue the path we are taking with this steady Jesusification of this country and the dismisal of scientific research and fact, we will continue to fall behind the rest of the world, and become a third world nation. Is that really what we want? <br /><br />It is apples and oranges comparing this issue to Pro Choice. Pro choice means you have the choice to have an abortion or not. Teaching evolution and intelligent design is not giving kids a choice, it is confusing the heck out of them, and they will learn nothing, becoming even less educated than our competitors in the rest of the world. You don't see Japan having this issue, they teach what is needed to function in todays world. <br /><br />Life started as a chemical reaction of basic elements that formed into basic single cell organisms. there is nothing poof about that at all. It is something that can be shown to occur in a laboratory setting. When you can show me an example of intelligent design where an unseen diety spontaniously created a complex living organism, then I'll believe it. That is more the example of "poof" than anything evolution speaks of.<br /><br />I am not trying to insult anyone, I am just trying to reinforce the fact that we as a whole owe it to our children to do the right thing and teach them in a consistant, intelligent manner, not in a confusing ill-informed way that is based purely on emotion and the "flavor of the day".<br /><br />Keep the church stuff in church people, you aren't going to convert everyone no matter how hard you try, you are only going to just push more people away and cause more division, more Us VS Them. Is that what you really want? This whole thing is exactly why I am not religious, just remember that.
 

PW2

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Re: I am puzzled.

The word "Theory" is used in science for pretty much everything involving a complex inter-reactive phenomenon.<br /><br />We still talk about the "Theory of gravity" yet not too many of us still worry about falling off the planet.<br /><br />Evolutionary theory is not an absolute science, yet it can be tested and it does yield experimentally reproducable results. That is the definition of a science.<br /><br />"Intelligent design" is a belief, not a science, and does not belong in a science curriculum.<br /><br />Have it in religion classes if you wish. I have no problem with that--<br /><br />Many Christian faiths have no problem with evolution, however.
 

Boomyal

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Re: I am puzzled.

Well say what you will but I would give as much weight to the teachings of the Book that is widely credited as having given rise to our Western civilization. Without it we would, today, be still running around with <br />turbans on our heads.<br /><br />There is no more proof that we developed from apes than there is prove that we were created by the direct hand of God. Your analogy using the 'theory of gravity' holds no water PW.<br /><br />Your arguements that possible truth should only be taught in Sunday School is both a joke and a travisty.
 

JasonJ

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Re: I am puzzled.

Boom, I like to believe I am smart enough to know that nothing I or anyone can say will dissuade you from your belief, and I don't want to dissuade you from that belief. We all need our belief system to function. The point is that no one is looking at the long-term ramifications of teaching mulitple versions of the same thing to kids that need continuity, not chaos. Kids need to learn what they can observe, and they should be given the spiritual learnings in the environment that is appropriate to their faith. <br /><br />This allows them to seperate the information, and come to their conclusions on their own. You are basically wanting to use the school system as a slick way to indoctrinate more of our youth into a belief system they may not want to be a part of. It is the families job to make our kids good christians, not the school. Its a recruiting tactic, plain and simple.<br /><br />I just don't think anyone is looking at the reality of what this confusion would do to our children. This is being spawned from the emotional need to relieve the devout from some wierd sense of persecution that isn't actually happening. No one is wanting to stifle anything, they just want everything in its place. Don't take this the wrong way, but our society have progressed leaps and bounds, lives are being saved, we are living longer, we are able to explore to the farthest reaches of our imaginations, and it is all owed to science. To clutter that up with confusing mythology is detrimental to our very progress. <br /><br />People need to learn the intricacies of education before deciding, on emotion, how they are going to further complicate an already wounded education system.<br /><br />BTW, Pw is spot on with his gravity statement...
 

dtherrien

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Re: I am puzzled.

Could someone tell me where did god come from? And do you think someday it will be crowded in heaven?
 

QC

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Re: I am puzzled.

dt,<br /><br />There is no answer to that/those questions.<br /><br />Jason,<br /><br />Please reread my post/posts. What bothers me is that there is never any discussion about the FACT that nobody knows where all this stuff comes from. Your post is a perfect example. You glommed on to the life part, and briefly mentioned "the planet" and then merrily flew by the where did the planet come from issue. Again, I don't care who you are, you don't know and it cannot be explained. That FACT makes me lean toward a creator, but I don't necessarily need you to believe that, but while our kids are in school learning "to be independant adults who are a positve functioning member or society" they should learn what is NOT proven too. How will they "separate the information, and come to their conclusions on their own" if they don't have ALL of the info, including what we don't know. For me that's totally enough, no need to add in unscientifically proven stuff that is based on faith, but a discussion about the "poof" part is pretty interesting, mind expanding and honest.<br /><br />I am gonna state again that I am not particularly religious, but I know that if you or I post something that sounds potentially/possibly religious that many choose to roll their eyes and believe that there is some agenda or ulterior motive attached to that. I don't have one. I am not trying to get you to believe in anything. I only want our kids to understand that science does NOT explain our origins, it only explains some stuff that happened along the way . . .<br /><br />P.S. Why do spell checkers get hung up on proven? Is that misspelled? Is that not a word? Anybody know?
 

JB

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Re: I am puzzled.

Boomer, there you go again, denying that facts exist.<br /><br />Hard, reproducible evidence exists that homo sapien evolved from earlier species of man-like creatures. Hard, reproducible evidence exists that homo sapien and other tail-less apes had a common ancestor and share 97-98% of DNA.<br /><br />True, we don't "know" how this happened, but we know that it did. Further evolution of homo sapien is observable and documented in recorded history. Even natural selection has been documented in survivors and immunity of Bubonic Plague and AIDS.<br /><br />We don't "know" who murdered JFK, either. Should we teach in history that LBJ had him snuffed?
 

Boomyal

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Re: I am puzzled.

Originally posted by JB:<br /> Hard, reproducible evidence exists that homo sapien evolved from earlier species of man-like creatures.
In your dreams JB. There is no such 'evidence' that we evolved from anything. Similarities in DNA mean nothing in that regard.
 

JB

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Re: I am puzzled.

If you say so, Boomer. :rolleyes:
 

JasonB

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Re: I am puzzled.

I'm with 'ya Boom.<br /><br />I won't get into the particulars of this, but will comment that this is even more reason why there are certain things my children will be taught at home. The school can help teach them math and such, but I don't want the PUBLIC school system teaching them anything about religion or a few other things I won't list here. They will be taught that at home and they can make their own decison. It's not the school's place, but I also don't want them downing what I will teach my child at home.<br /><br />The problem is only partly with the education system. It's trying to react to public demands. A big part of the problem lies with parents letting the education system raise their kids expecting the school to teach them everything they need to know about life and then wondering why the kids come out confused. If more parents would get involved in their kid's lives, a lot of this would be moot.<br /><br />On second thought, maybe by then I can afford to send them to Private school....<br /><br />I don't try to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and the promotion thereof. I don't mind civil discussion of the subject, but I will say that I don't care for the mythology comment above.
 

Kiwi Phil

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Re: I am puzzled.

and we think the muslims have got it bad...........jeeeeeeez.<br />Anyway, I vote for Sunday School.<br />Cheers<br />Phillip
 

rolmops

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Re: I am puzzled.

Good morning on this beautiful Sunday.A great day to look out and greet our Creator.<br />MrbScot I am afraid that last night I met your FSM and so impressed was I by His presence that I ate Him.I am truly sorry if I caused any of you pastafarians any pain. :( <br />Now for my good friend Boom. :) <br />Please be patient with all of Darwin's :mad: followers.Not all of them have evolved at the same speed as darwin :eek: would like us to think.Specially the brain functioning at the level of rational and critical thought is a good example of partial development.Add to that the capability (or lack thereof)of independent observation of the universe around us,and it becomes clear why not everybody on these forums has evolved to the point where they can see what you already know to be true. :eek: ;) :p <br />Peace brother.
 
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