I can't believe this

[SgtMaj]

Re: I can't believe this

My outhouse ain't.

I don't know if you've been near your outhouse lately, but it needs more than a smoke detector... it needs a smell detector or something... pheew that thang stanks sumtin aweful!

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: I can't believe this

The store didn't have an alarm because it had a sprinkler system. I don't know why, but that is the way it was built in the early 80's. It has something to do with occupancy. If your business has rooms for sleeping, then it mandatory for a fire alarm. It also is determined on the amount of square feet of the business as well. Some of our other stores do have fire alarms, but they were built during the 90's when the codes changed.

The sprinklers didn't go off because the fire/heat was above the ceiling. Even if it had an alarm it wouldn't have sounded because everything was venting up above thru the roof. If the roofer had not acted, then maybe things would have been a lot worse than it was. Someone probably would have got hurt/injured.

I call it one of my stores because I service them for the owners. They are very successful people who do have their stuff together. Rather it be cracks in the side walk to pot holes in the parking lot, they are repaired immediatly. Customer safety is a priority to the owners. Mainly to elimate any possibility of a law suit. The high end security systems we use has lots of cameras that cover just about every square inch of the store. This has eliminated many slip and fall cases. It has even put some scumbags in jail because of theft of purses from customers.

Got to go, lots of work this morning....Have a great day!......SS

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: I can't believe this

I imagine there are fire suppression control units over a few key pieces of equipment.......

With all the entrance/exit doors there is no need for an alarm. We are talking about a small building.......

I do believe it is based on square footage and design for alarms.

 

[RWilson2526]

Re: I can't believe this

Bigoneli....Read the original post....someone tried to sue for smoke inhalation which according to SS did not happen. Some complained of short changing on a store that was closed...did not happen......The women with the point about the fire alarm is more than welcome to complain, file a letter or the like to make changes to a system that allows buildings to not have fire alarms if she thinks it is not safe. Maybe she can change the statutes in that area. If she is seeking a lawsuit to obtain money for an incident that caused her no harm or injury her "moral fiber" is suspect. AKA "scumbaggery" -

 

[i386]

Re: I can't believe this

Jay, Define too hot? Coffee is supposed to be between 200 and 205 degrees

Coffee is meant to be ingested. If it damages tissue when you attempt to consume it, it's too damn hot. If you have to wait and let it cool down before you can safely drink it, then it's too hot to drink. Sometimes I get one to go with one of those dome shaped lids on it. I turn it up carefully to take a test sip. When the coffee starts to fill up the the lid and heats the lid so that it burns my lip before any coffee even comes out it's too damn hot.

I'm not going to sue anyone over it, but it really does annoy me to no end. I don't want to buy a drink and then have to wait until it's cool enough not to burn me.


Back on topic. Anyone caught drying to make a buck like SS MAYFLOAT described should be prosecuted and made an example of. If they're found guilty, part of their punishment should be to drink coffee that's too hot.

 

[CN Spots]

Re: I can't believe this

I doubt you'll find a smoke alarm in most stores. Even places like Wal-Mart. There's not one in our entire plant or even in the offices. Most have a large red bell that goes off when the sprinkler system starts flowing water current through the lines. We are required to purge our lines every so often to make sure that it works.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: I can't believe this

As for the coffe temps,,,for proper brewing temps, the water must be between 195 and 205. That is what our brewers must meet to satisfy corparate standards. If you ever brewed a pot of coffee that didn't have adequate temps, then you know it will taste weak if any taste at all. It does make a big difference in getting all the enhanced flavor out of the grounds.

On a side note, once the coffee leaves the funnel where the grounds are, it immediately drops 10 to 15 degrees in that 1 to 2 inch air space. If the pot sits on the warmer, it will not keep it at those temps like in the brewing cycle.

I work on so many commercial coffee pots, I call them deliming machines. They do nothing but remove the lime out of the water. That is the major problem of their failure.

 

[arboldt]

Re: I can't believe this

I'm quite surprised that fire alarms and detectors were not required. Sometime around 1981, the company I worked for (in my former career) was required by a couple Indiana counties to put sprinkler heads in walk-in freezers in their commercial kitchens. Now if those cases of frozen green beans ever caught fire, they'd certainly get an icy response.

For those that are interested, when the McD's coffee incident happened, they were following the established guidelines of the American Coffee Institute specifying that water be between 195* and 200* for best flavor extraction. You just can't fix stupid, although you may be required to compensate for it.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: I can't believe this

There's a huge difference between optimal brewing temperature and optimal serving temperature. I read a survey that stated that more people prefer 160 degrees than other temperatures, followed by 140, then 170, then 120, then 180. McDonalds kept theirs between 180 and 190. They had 700 burn complaints realated to their coffee. They lowered the temperature after the lawsuit. In this case, the lawyer found a good angle to exploit, and that's kind of irritating. However McDonalds made several mistakes that were easy to exploit. They would have been a heck of a lot better off had they just paid the plaintiff's medical bills, which were significantly lower than the settlement they had to pay. They also would have looked a lot better if they hadn't already offered multiple out-of-court settlements to other plaintiffs for coffee-related injuries.

I've always found McDonalds coffee to be served far too hot.

My father had a good McDonalds coffee story. He bought a cup of coffee in Truckee CA, and waited ten miles or so for it to cool down to drinking temperature. He took his first sip and nearly vomited. The coffee had mustard, ketchup, pickle juice, and who knows what else in it. Turns out some punk was finishing out his last shift and wanted to stick it to the customer.

He didn't sue. He did get a free replacement cup of coffee out of the deal.

 

[orion25]

Re: I can't believe this

Read the link below for the facts in the coffee case. Here is a quote from the page:

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company
actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185
degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn
hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above,
and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured
into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn
the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns
would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing
the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Link to Site.

 

[CN Spots]

Re: I can't believe this

Maybe they should start installing coffee alarms.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: I can't believe this

Again, it's HOT COFFEE! If you want your coffee cooler, wait a while or order an iced coffee... I have NO sympathy for people who complain about the hot coffee they ordered being too hot... ZERO... and no matter what you say, or how many times or different ways you say it, you'll never get me to feel ANY sympathy for them.

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: I can't believe this

Again, it's HOT COFFEE! If you want your coffee cooler, wait a while or order an iced coffee... I have NO sympathy for people who complain about the hot coffee they ordered being too hot... ZERO... and no matter what you say, or how many times or different ways you say it, you'll never get me to feel ANY sympathy for them.

I am with the Sarge on this.
If you want cold coffee, order it with ice.
My maker here at the house will burn you too if you just drink it up out of the pot.
They are just out to make a buck anyway they can cause they are too lazy to get a job.
The world has went sue crazy and everyone is getting onboard.

 

[orion25]

Re: I can't believe this

Did anyone read the page I put the link up for? Here are a few more quotes:

During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700
claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims
involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This
history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of
this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants
advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to
maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the
safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell
coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is
generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin
burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full
thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony
showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent
of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus,
if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would
have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: I can't believe this

face it there are people who make a good living, from insurance fraud.

 

[External Combustion]

Re: I can't believe this

I think I have figured this out. Due to no fault of my own (there is no such thing as personal responsibility these days) I can not feel heat, pain or sometimes pressure in my legs and left arm around half of the time. I look around me and realized the great danger that I am in and NO MANUFACTURER CARES!!!

There are nine warning lables on my hot water heater in my house warning of the explosion hazard it creates, (I read them all) yet it was designed to be kept in a closet where the lables aren't visable. There is not a single warning of scalding hazards printed on the shower knob or sink faucet where I use the hot water. Come to think of it, there is no warning printed on my razor of the danger of being cut. I might bleed to death because of the blood thinners in me!

Oh my, there are no warnings printed on my car telling me that gasoline is an explosion hazard and that it is know to cause cancer in California. No warnings at all about traveling to California! Surely the car makers should be made to find a safer fuel than gasoline.

I purchased this house and someone has removed the warning signs that would have told me about the slip and trip hazards that my front porch presents getting to my car.

I just looked and there are no warnigs on my grocery bags about the risk of back strain and no tips printed on them about how best to lift the food items safely.

Those dastardly people that dared to provide me with these defective items that are supposed to make my life easier, but instead put me at unknowing risk deserve to have their livelyhoods taken away from them and all of their evil profits given to me in recompense for the risk that I have had to live through.

Where do I find a lawyer that will help me seek justice?

 

[cheburashka]

Re: I can't believe this

Look, I realize that there are people out there who manipulate the system and try to take advantage of situations. At the same time, there are manufacturers and marketers who are unscrupulous, and who don't worry about the safety of consumers. Remember the Pinto? Ford decided that the amount they'd have to pay out in wrongful death suits was less than the amount it would cost them to reinforce the gas tank area. Gerber refused to issue a recall on baby food with broken glass in the jars because it would have been worse for their business than having a few babies eat broken glass. There are plenty of other similar cases. Sometimes, products ARE dangerous and the manufacturers DON'T care. And yes, sometimes people are jerks. Let's get a little balance in this thread.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: I can't believe this

Coffee is meant to be ingested. If it damages tissue when you attempt to consume it, it's too damn hot. If you have to wait and let it cool down before you can safely drink it, then it's too hot to drink. Sometimes I get one to go with one of those dome shaped lids on it. I turn it up carefully to take a test sip. When the coffee starts to fill up the the lid and heats the lid so that it burns my lip before any coffee even comes out it's too damn hot.

I'm not going to sue anyone over it, but it really does annoy me to no end. I don't want to buy a drink and then have to wait until it's cool enough not to burn me.


Back on topic. Anyone caught drying to make a buck like SS MAYFLOAT described should be prosecuted and made an example of. If they're found guilty, part of their punishment should be to drink coffee that's too hot.

I'm with you. If the stuff is so hot that spilling it on your foot causes an eventual amputation, I sure as heck wouldn't want to try to drink it.

The problem is simple - normal people don't expect a food product to be served at a temperature that is extremely dangerous. Hot? Yes. Hot enough to possibly singe the tongue a wee bit? Maybe. Certainly not hot enough to cause major damage and certainly not hot enough that a simple and common accident (spillage) causes a severe injury.

The same is true of the fire alarm/sprinkler issue. What happened was outside of the norm in terms of how fire suppression and alert systems are designed. That being the case, the owners really didn't do anything wrong. On the other hand, had they ignored building codes and not had the proper systems inside the building, I think most would agree that they would deserve whatever they got.

Its all about reasonableness and common sense.

 

[orion25]

Re: I can't believe this

Look, I realize that there are people out there who manipulate the system and try to take advantage of situations. At the same time, there are manufacturers and marketers who are unscrupulous, and who don't worry about the safety of consumers. Remember the Pinto? Ford decided that the amount they'd have to pay out in wrongful death suits was less than the amount it would cost them to reinforce the gas tank area. Gerber refused to issue a recall on baby food with broken glass in the jars because it would have been worse for their business than having a few babies eat broken glass. There are plenty of other similar cases. Sometimes, products ARE dangerous and the manufacturers DON'T care. And yes, sometimes people are jerks. Let's get a little balance in this thread.

Well the woman in the Micky D's coffee case only wanted about $20K for her medical bills in the beginning. Micky D's told her no way. So she sued and it wound up in an out of court settlement for who knows what amount. I (my own opinion) think they could have given her $20K, lowered the coffee temp and saved a lot of $$ when you consider legal fees, etc. This is just another case where the media sensationalizes a lawsuit but does not provide all the info. The media says "a woman got $2.5 million because she was burned by hot coffee". But they never mention that it was 30+ degrees above the point that most people could drink it or it was less than 30 or so degrees from boiling.

By the way, the only reason I know so much about this case is that my business law class in college studied it and spent a lot of time discussing it. The amount that the jury came up with was something along the lines of the revenue McDonalds gets between 6am and noon for coffee sales on the average day.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: I can't believe this

What I find unreal about this about McD's coffee brewers is that they are not made just for them. Most of the stores either have Bunn or Bloomfield. These machines are in many other well known resturants. Being a service tech, most if not all resturant owners/managers want that coffee to be as hot as it can be without boiling. I'm always happy to acheive between 195 to 200. After 200 most machines will start rumbing and jumping around because the water is trying to boil. Lots to blame is the impurities that is in the water. Filtering removes a lot of contaminants, but they won't remove the lime. We presently are installing Reverse Osmosis systems to prevent the lime build up. Also it is not recommended to use soft water to brew coffee.

The warmers on the pots have no thermostat. The element produces "X" amount of watts and will only heat to that amount.

I remember years ago that lawyers/attorneys could not advertise on TV, but now (especially the news) it seems that there are many pushing their practice. I think this also promotes uneeded, unjustified law suits resulting in all these warning/safety labels. Take a good look at all the labels on a step ladder. Its hard to see the ladder due to all the labels

Have a great weekend,,,,,,I'm officially headed to the lake