I just dont' get it

[howlnmad]

Re: I just dont' get it

.

A boat using seperate watertight compartments with bilge pump and drainplugs fitted, would be far safer than a boat using foam that has become waterlogged.

It worked out well for the Titanic didn't it. Sorry, had to do it.

 

[JAFO1]

Re: I just dont' get it

Sort of a newbie question here...please don't flame me if I'm way off base.....in relation ot the weight aspect.

Obviously foam weighs more than air, and as a result would be the same as having more people on board -- draft a little deeper and require a little bit more power (and more gas). It also would provide less floatation per cubic foot than a completely sealed compartment of air.

However, would it not also provide the benefit of greatly enhancing the stability of the boat by keeping the centre of gravity as low as possible? A boat that has lots of weight below (or very near) the water line would be less susceptible to the effects of potentially misbalancing the weight associated with passengers/gear, as well as taking waves anything but head-on. I believe in theory, you would reduce the pitch/roll associated with everyday boating.

For your average boater (and that certainly isn't this group), I would think that it would be desirable to have more stability versus a boat that is as light as possible (obviously not the case if you're trying to set world speed records).

Also, if you used expanding foam versus pool noodles/pink stuff, would it not significantly reduce the stress on both the fiberglass hull, and your brand new floor; as the impact of water on the hull would be distributed over the entire floor and the impact of people/gear on the floor would be distributed over the entire hull as opposed to just the spots that are attached to the stringers.

I would think that if you could drain it properly (no idea how you would do this), you would increase the longevity of your restoration work, as the weight of that 300lb passenger steeping between two stringers is braced slightly better, and the impact of that landing after getting some air is distributed over more surface area.

The foam I will use is 2lbs per cubic foot, and I think I need about 8 cubic feet, that is only 16 pounds added to the boat. Since my boat originally came with foam, I assume they, Skeeter, took that 16lbs into account.

Not sure about the center of gravity question.

I don't know how it would add stability other than keeping things stiff and rigid.

There is an active thread "Timid but determined restoration" and the author details his plan to have longer lasting foam.

(I gotta figure out the "multi quote" thing)

 

[proaudioguy]

Re: I just dont' get it

Can someone tell me how to check for wet foam, and what do you do about it? Our boat is trailered and it lives outside in the rain. Just finally got a cover to help keep it clean.

 

[JAFO1]

Re: I just dont' get it

Can someone tell me how to check for wet foam, and what do you do about it? Our boat is trailered and it lives outside in the rain. Just finally got a cover to help keep it clean.

You will probably have to drill a hole somewhere. On my boat I stuck a long dowel rod into the hole and let it sit for a bit, then pulled the dowel out. Kind of like a dip stick.
I think wet foam means a restore. If not now, in the future.

 

[LUCKYDUX]

Re: I just dont' get it

Good input fella's!! It's difficult for me to grasp without seeing, and the pictures you all have created in my mind have helped. It made me think back to the earlier foam less days of the centuries before, and of how many boats sank without it. I don't know what my foam is going to look like because I haven't taken the deck out yet...which I'm now questioning. I originally wanted to just re carpet and replace the low foot decking but here I am...

Any input is put to good to use so please share...pictures are priceless

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: I just dont' get it

Good input fella's!! It's difficult for me to grasp without seeing, and the pictures you all have created in my mind have helped. It made me think back to the earlier foam less days of the centuries before, and of how many boats sank without it. I don't know what my foam is going to look like because I haven't taken the deck out yet...which I'm now questioning. I originally wanted to just re carpet and replace the low foot decking but here I am...

Any input is put to good to use so please share...pictures are priceless

I like that drainage a lot....Psst tap holes with a 1/2 bit...Umm maybe not foam will fill them...But that is a nice ideal

 

[westexasrepublic]

Re: I just dont' get it

hey westexrep, do you own a frontier?

05' Texas Frontier SE KC

I like that drainage a lot....Psst tap holes with a 1/2 bit...Umm maybe not foam will fill them...But that is a nice ideal

yah I thought of the hole idea then also realized when I set foam it would just fill them in, so what I did last night was glass in the PVC from the top only and left the bottom where it contacts the hull unglassed to allow gravity to let any water drip down under the pipe to the middle of the boat and out the back.

 

[LUCKYDUX]

Re: I just dont' get it

I thought your user name sounded familiar, I'm on CF as well but its been a while.
I don't trust myself completely with building new stringers...are you pouring foam just in the area with the pvc?

 

[westexasrepublic]

Re: I just dont' get it

Yah im on cf, but since i got this boat ive been over here on iboats...my poor truck has been neglected since then...

Im pouring foam through the entire boat hull just the main cavity under the deck is getting special attention since that is where half of the foam will be and also most exposed to water from above

 

[lowvlot]

Re: I just dont' get it

So where is everyone getting there pourable foam? Most inexpensive?

 

[erikgreen]

Re: I just dont' get it

Lots of back and forth on this, but I want to point out two facts about floatation, foam, and boats that haven't been mentioned.

First, the laws applicable to boat floatation in the US aren't actually laws. They're regulations from the coast guard, and published as part of the federal register C.F.R (Code of Federal Regulations). A link to the applicable part of the CFR is here:

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title33/33-2.0.1.8.44.html#33:2.0.1.8.44.5


The mentioned "floatation materials" can be used to meet the requirement, or air chambers (sealed compartments) can be used.

Note that the CFR also lists things like capacity plates and appropriate HP for propulsion. In other words, not having floatation appropriate to the boat is the same level of infraction as not having a capacity plate at all or having an oversize outboard. Some USCG inspections (if anyone actually sees the USCG these days) won't even notice, some will be picky.


Second, note that the obvious thing to prevent rot on boats has been and is still being done... most "real" boats, IE those not meant solely for recreational use and mass produced are still made with a bilge system. That is, they are designed to allow water to drain to the lowest point in the boat where it is pumped out. Personally I would not want to own a boat that did not do this. Larger boats actually use several isolated compartments, basically the sections of the boat aren't connected, to ensure that a leaky section that fills the bilge won't sink the boat.

We see so many boats with rot and wet foam on this community because:
A) these are the cheap boats and the most common type of water craft around

B) Better made boats tend to rot less, they last a long time and and don't show up as often here

C) If you're trying to get a good boat cheap, like many of us here, you're not going to go out and buy that Donzi or aluminum lake assault boat for $5000 to fix up... you're going to pay $500 for your neighbor's old Bayliner in the hopes that it's not too rotten.

If manufacturers still had to make boats without foam, with bilges and provision for getting the water out, there'd be fewer boats out there in general, but there'd be more older boats on the water too.



Erik

 

[Greg Mrozinski]

Re: I just dont' get it

Erik,

I believe that these regs apply only to the following boats:

(1) Manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use;
(2) Leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's noncommercial use; or
(3) Operated as an uninspected passenger vessel subject to the requirements of 46 CFR chapter I, subchapter C.

So, a boat manufacturer is required to use floatation foam when it constructs it's boats for sale, lease, or charter to the public. If you rebuild/refurb your own boat then floatation foam is not required. Whether or not it is advisable to use foam when re-building is always a discussion point.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: I just dont' get it

I flipped this little go-fast three different times. Don't ask! The first time it floated upside down with neutral buoyancy and was almost impossible to right. I bought some cans of spray foam and filled under the gunwales plus every available nook and cranny (Thomas's english muffins). I also put about a dozen 1/2 gallon empty milk jugs in the rear compartments. The second time it floated much higher and while still difficult to right, it was easier. To me it was a no-brainer: Foam anything that will take it.

 

[LUCKYDUX]

Re: I just dont' get it

Well although my small scale experiment didn't give foam the praise I was seeking I believe I will leave foam in this boat...hopefully the existing has a few years left. I don't plan on having it too long and it has no leaks that I know of as of now so I'll let the next man have a go. I got the boat for $300 with a 48 johnson, 40lb minn-kota, older garmin tx400, lowrance depth finder, and brand new seats as well as anything else a boater would need so I couldn't pass it by. Wish me luck when the floor comes up

 

[clockwatcher]

Re: I just dont' get it

So where is everyone getting there pourable foam? Most inexpensive?

The best prices I found was at aeromarine. Nice folks too.

I figure if we don't want our boats to be waterlogged, keep them out of the rain.

 

[jfried]

Re: I just dont' get it

Getting away from the legal discussion....

IMO one of the best foam-jobs I've seen on here is from BobGlasstream. Thread link here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=357690&page=23

He (apparently) set plastic down (to make the foam removable/not stick to the hull. Thenn would pour the foam, and then prevent it from rising by standing on a piece of plywood that was shielded with plastic. Obviously the results are very clean, would leave no space for water to pool, and would be perfectly (or close to it) balanced. The one potential issue that I think he'd have is if water were to somehow get into the foam-filled sections (crack in deck?), it would of course have nowhere to go because there is no drainage, and it would likely seep into the foam.

How do you guys think would be the best way to go about solving that potential issue? My thought would be that before plastic is laid down, to drill small drain holes through the stringers near the stern of the boat. The next step would be to seal the recently drilled wood with resin, and then place some sort of "plug" or "dowel" in the hole so foam doesn't force it's way through there. Once the foam sets, you pull the plugs out, and have a full filled compartment that has a small place for water to pool and drain into the bilge, where that foam is protected by a sheet of plastic.

Thoughts?

 

[clockwatcher]

Re: I just dont' get it

BobGlasstream's work is really, really nice. Less air means less condensation.

I pondered the drainage question for some time. You have to cut limber holes to channel any water down and out. But how do you keep the foam out of the channel as you pour it? I thought about using sand or plastic airsoft BBs covered in window screen. In the end I used ordinary soaker hose. I cut the hose to run along the stringers at the lowest point and duck taped it down. The hoses lead to the bilge where I have threaded pvc collars and plugs. I'll just removed the plugs during the winder and maybe put the shop-vac to it if needed. The hose will act more like a candle wick than a flume.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: I just dont' get it

Erik,

I believe that these regs apply only to the following boats:

(1) Manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use;
(2) Leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's noncommercial use; or
(3) Operated as an uninspected passenger vessel subject to the requirements of 46 CFR chapter I, subchapter C.

So, a boat manufacturer is required to use floatation foam when it constructs it's boats for sale, lease, or charter to the public. If you rebuild/refurb your own boat then floatation foam is not required. Whether or not it is advisable to use foam when re-building is always a discussion point.

Greg -

I believe if you read the links I sent, you'll see that they apply to recreational boats as well. For additional reference, check the USCG guide for backyard boat builders, which has similar requirements.

Also, while I agree that you are not specifically required to replace foam on your own boat, I don't have a specific quote to a regulation or law that addresses this. Additionally I believe that the floatation requirements apply to boats that are sold or transferred within the US, so if you ever wanted to sell a boat without foam that was manufactured with it, you might need to have foam there.

I've been around here for and been part of many a discussion about foam... my own choice is to take it out where I find it for the most part

Erik

 

[jfried]

Re: I just dont' get it

BobGlasstream's work is really, really nice. Less air means less condensation.

I pondered the drainage question for some time. You have to cut limber holes to channel any water down and out. But how do you keep the foam out of the channel as you pour it? I thought about using sand or plastic airsoft BBs covered in window screen. In the end I used ordinary soaker hose. I cut the hose to run along the stringers at the lowest point and duck taped it down. The hoses lead to the bilge where I have threaded pvc collars and plugs. I'll just removed the plugs during the winder and maybe put the shop-vac to it if needed. The hose will act more like a candle wick than a flume.

One question I have with a soaker hose is whether or not it will actually pick up all of the water / moisture in there, as a soaker hose relies on the water pressure to force water out of it (in its' intended use), and unless you've got a real problem with a lot of water, it's not going to pick it up.

However, I think the hose idea could be used in a different concept. I think the best of both worlds would be to tkae an old standard garden hose (or any type of hose that will hold it's shape but is also flexible) and ran it alongside the low point of the stringer loosely (and through the stringer at the stern of the boat). Then pour the foam and let it set. Then pull the hose through the transom hole to remove it from the compartment. You'd have a nice channel the approximate diameter of a hose at the bottom of the stringer for any water to run down into the bilge without sitting there.

The one problem is that it would be extremely difficult/impossible to pull the hose through because you'd be pulling "sideways" versus straight, so you'd have to do it in 2 stages leaving a compartment at the stern (or bow) open to allow the hose to come out.

 

[jonesg]

Re: I just dont' get it

by the late 70's the builders realized that the foam could be structural, its anti crush strength is fantastic. it was good sound proofing, and best of all, if the foam did get waterlogged it would rot the wood and the boat would be toast. thus giving the boat a 20 year life expextancy under average conditions and use. thus the boat no longer had an indefinite life span.

this was a gold mine for the builders....they could use less materials (fiberglass and resin) because of the anti crush and use more foam for structural purposes.

So good it bears repeating.