Inverter install problem, electrician needed

[yellowchap]

Hope you electrical guys can help for I am puzzled and in desprite need of help, sooo here goes.<br /><br />I put a coleman 2000w inverter in my boat along with a new 3 position source switch. The switch replaced a 2 position. Wired everything up, checked shore power first. Works great. Checked inverter and have the reverse polarity light on but only on the individual circuit breaker panel (the one with the test light) not the source panel. The reverse polarity light on the source panel does not come on. With shore power everything works great. Wired everything by directions. Checked and rechecked wiring.<br /><br />Could it be the way the inverter is wired on the inside from factory? This inverter has a outlet on it so I plugged in to it and run straight to the source panel.

 

[pilot4net]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Actually, when dealing with AC current, there is no "polarity" as in the sense of "+" or "-" since the current will still flow through the circuit even though the hot and neutral leads are reversed. This tends to lead people to sometime disregard which side is the line side or neutral side of switches or outlets. I am not particulary familiar with the "switches" that you are talking about, but if you are getting a reversed "polarity" light on the output (AC side) of the inverter at the boat circuit breaker panel, it may be that the neutral and line (or hot side) have been swapped around. I also am not sure what kind of wire you connected the inverter to the source switches with, but I would first start by simply reversing the neutral and hot wires coming from the source switch going to the inverter. Just remember that a green wire or bare copper wire is always a ground, the black "should" be the line or hot side, and the white wire is the neutral. The black wire should tie in to the line or hot side of the switch (usually a copper colored screw), the white wire should tie into the neutral side of the switch (sometimes an aluminum screw) and the ground into the ground screw which is sometimes colored green. Swap the white and black wires at the switch or inverter, either place you can and see if that remedies the problem. If you are familiar with a volt meter, I could give some suggestions to check, so let me know if you need that info. The simplest would be to swap the wires and check. Let us know what happens!!

 

[yellowchap]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunatly I have already switched the hot and neutral with the same result. I checked the inverter by meter and had 120v with hot and neutral then checked hot to ground 0 volts and neutral to ground with 0 volts. This confuses me. Also I had the 12volt radio on at the time that I switched the wires and developed a humming sound through the speakers. I also checked a 120v rec. for polarity and it was ok.<br /><br />I ran 10/2 wire from the inverter to the switch Bluesea PN# 8366 and wired neutral and hot as directed. Ground (green) with the rest of the ground wires at the switch.<br /><br />Is this something to really worry about or is this ok to use. I have heard of electronics being damaged and don't want this to happen or endanger anybody especially me.

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

I need a few more details. I assume you are feeding 12 volts to the inverter directly from the battery (10 gauge wire seems a little light for a 2000 watt inverter, but maybe it is a very short run). You are then sending inverted 110 back to the 3 position selector switch on your main panel via a power cord plugged into the three prong outlet on the inverter and hard wired into the selector switch. This may be your problem. Is there another output option on the inverter other than the three prong? A quick check would be to get a polarity tester from Home Depot (about $5), unplug the feed to the main panel, and plug the tester into the three prong outlet on the inverter. If polarity checks O.K. then you can be fairly certain you wired the feed to the three position switch incorrectly.<br /><br />One last question: where is the reverse polarity light that is coming on? On your main panel or on the inverter?

 

[yellowchap]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

The 10 gauge wire is to the switch from the inverter. #2 gauge is from the batteries to the inverter. Sorry for being cofusing. There is no other output on the inverter other than another three prong. The light is on the circuit panel that has all the individual circuits like air cond.,charger, and refrigerator. The selector switch also has a light but it does not come on.<br /><br />As far as a tester, I can't get it to work on the inverter. I plug the tester in and the lights flicker alittle and the light on the inverter turns red as soon as I plug in. Then the inverter shuts down. I can plug a power tool into the inverter and the tool works.

 

[Wimperdink]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

your tester is shorting something out... the light turning red and inverter shutting down is overload protection. As for the hum through your stereo, are the wires from the battery to the inverter anywhere near the wires by the stereo or speakers... that gauge of wire running next to speaker wires will create a magnetic field that will do what your talking about. make sure your speaker wires and stereo wires are well insulated and as far away from your inverter wiring as possible. As for A/C I wish I understood it better to help.

 

[yellowchap]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

The speakers only hummed when I reversed the hot and neutral. As for the tester shorting out the inverter, that makes sense to me but I don't understand why. The tester is good I do know that. How can something so simple be such a pain in the butt.

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Since your shore power doesn't cause the circuit panel reverse polarity light to come on, you might try removing the shore power feed to the source switch and connecting the inverter feed to those terminals. Perhaps there's something flaky in the source switch. The modified sine wave output from the inverter may cause a problem with the little polarity tester which in turn causes the inverter to go into protection mode. Sorry for confusing your battery feed wires as 10 ga. On a re-read, you were specific on that. On my boat, I didn't wire the inverter into the main panel. I only use it to run the video system, so I can't say I don't have your problem. It's possible that one of your AC appliances does not like the modified sine wave. Have you tried turning everything AC powered off at the panel to see if the reverse polarity light goes out?

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Since your shore power doesn't cause the circuit panel reverse polarity light to come on, you might try removing the shore power feed to the source switch and connecting the inverter feed to those terminals. Perhaps there's something flaky in the source switch. The modified sine wave output from the inverter may cause a problem with the little polarity tester which in turn causes the inverter to go into protection mode. Sorry for confusing your battery feed wires as 10 ga. On a re-read, you were specific on that. On my boat, I didn't wire the inverter into the main panel. I only use it to run the video system, so I can't say I don't have your problem. It's possible that one of your AC appliances does not like the modified sine wave. Have you tried turning everything AC powered off at the panel to see if the reverse polarity light goes out?

 

[yellowchap]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

navigator336, I'll give the turning everything off deal a try. It certainly can't hurt and I've tried everything else I could think of. I will also try moving the wires to the shore power terminals. Is there a chance that you could check your inverter to see if it does the same thing with a tester?<br /><br />Please keep the suggestions coming. I can not let this thing beat me. Thanks guys.

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Sure, I'll take my polarity tester down to the boat tomorrow.

 

[pilot4net]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

You said you checked hot to neutral and found 120 volts but found no voltage when checking from hot to ground or neutral to ground. Without actually being there, I would tend to believe that you are not picking up the ground at the output side of the inverter as it should. Are you sure that the light on the panel that comes on is a reversed polarity light? There are some instances where manufacturers will put ground fault lights on panels to indicate that the system is not properly grounded. I am not familiar with pleasure boat wiring, I only work on larger commercial marine vessels and their elect- rical systems are pretty simple. I am not completely sure whether the neutral and ground are even bonded together on an inverter. I have used many of them, but have never had any reason to test one with a meter. I cannot see why they wouldn't be common but I am not certain. I will plug my inverter in this morning and see what I get with a meter and I will get back to you. If you did lose the ground it would indicate a fault in the inverter. I will get back to you as soon as I can to let you know what I found on my inverter. Till then...Later.

 

[pilot4net]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Alright, I just checked my inverter(mod. sine wave) in my truck and when checking from neutral to hot I got ~118 volts. I then checked from hot to ground and got voltage and also from neutral to ground and got voltage. I am not really sure why there is voltage on the neutral side, but in any case there is. The point is that I was able to measure voltage to ground. I see two problems here for you. If there is voltage in the neutral side of the output, the panel you say is throwing a light might see this as a reversed polarity condition. When checking for voltage from hot to ground, move your meter lead all around the groung hole in the plug. On mine, I found that the only place there was a metal plate to effect the ground was at the very top of the hole, so try different spots in the hole. If you are not getting any ground indication, at the inverter, it may be a problem with the inverter.

 

[H20Bo]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

I have the same problem with my inverter. Plug the output side of the inverter into the boat shore power input and the reverse polarity light on the AC panel comes on. In reading the thread, Pilot4net may be on to something. On mine, in addition to the reverse polarity light on, the GFI swith in the bathroom also trips. Maybe the nature of the modified sine wave is read to be a ground fault to the system? As a side bar, I've read that the Honda EU2000, which is an inverter generator also makes the reverse polarity light come on. Honda tells you not a problem. So is this a safty problem, or just something the AC system thinks is a problem.<br />Jim

 

[pilot4net]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

H2OBo, when the GFI you speak of in the bathroom trips, can you reset it and it will work? Some GFI's will trip when power is put to them but usually when they are reset, they work fine. Just to check that everything is OK with the GFI, just push the test button and if it trips, everything is ok and just reset it again. If it does not then the GFI outlet as well as all circuits protected by it are not protected from a ground fault such as dropping a radio in the tub or sink. I am betting that since I measure voltage on the neutral side of my inverter, this could be a cause for your reverse polarity condition. If it is a normal phenomena of modified sine wave inverters, then it should not be a concern of safety. It is also worth noting that you should be careful what you hook up to it since like Navigator said, some devices are sensitive to the modified sine wave and it could damage the device. I ruined two laptop computer battery chargers before I figured out what was happening. Just a word of caution.

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Yellowchap,<br /><br />I tested my inverter (also a Coleman Powermate) and found it acts much like yours. When I plugged the polarity tester in, all three lights came on (which is the only condition for which there is no diagnosis on the tester). It did not cause the inverter to go into protection mode though. Like Pilot4net I checked voltage from neutral to ground and hot to ground and found voltage on both at about 60 VAC. So I suspect the good news is your inverter and wiring job are fine, but the reverse polarity light is going to stay on. As long as your GFI functions properly, everything should be O.K. I would like to know how the ground of the inverter is configured out of curiosity. I think I'll test to see if the output is tied to the input ground.

 

[yellowchap]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

H20Bo, I have a eu2000 Honda and the light flickers alittle but does not at any time stay on. I have also heard that Honda says not to worry about it. I have used it several times with no problems. <br /><br />Pilot and Nav, thanks for staying with me on this. My main concern is safety. I am not too concerned about the light being on as long as it is safe. The wiring was checked in my head so many times it gave me a headache. So if the inverter is simply putting the light on without danger, I am good to go.<br /><br />Pilt4net, I am going to check the voltage again Friday evening and see if I can pick up something this time. The light says Reverse Polarity and has a test toggle switch beside it. That is all I know about it other than it is starting to get on my nerves. <br /><br />NAV, Please let me know what you find out. I would also like to know.<br /><br />SO, IS EVERYBODY HERE AGREEING THAT IT IS SAFE...?

 

[navigator336]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

I think if you GFI is working properly, you'll be fine. This web site has some decent info, although it doesn't discuss polarity issues. <br /><br />www.whistlergroup.com/faq-inverters-answers.asp#16

 

[pilot4net]

Re: Inverter install problem, electrician needed

Navigator, I suspect the reason you measured only 60 VAC was probably because the meter you were using was not a "true RMS" capable tester. Most common meters you will buy at retail stores are not. The RMS meters tend to be on the expensive side for homeowners or DIY'ers. Even Fluke makes a couple of models that aren't of the RMS type. The modified sine wave really skews the readings of the non-RMS testers. It doesn't matter, as long as you got voltage you know where it is going. On a side note, I checked the AC ground and tried to check it path and it seemed to be bonded to the DC ground but only while the inverter was on. While not powered up, no continuity was found. I have read in some tech books that it is suicide to the inverter to bond the AC ground and DC grounds together.