jon boat plaining

benelli

Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
21
I have a 16 foot crestliner jon. It's one that has the open floor. It has the seat in the back and the platform in the front. No middle seat. I have a 40 4-stroke tiller with power tilt & trim. The problem I have is all the weight is in the back with two batteries and 12 gallon gas tank. When I'm by myself the boat plains ok but with two people the front wants to ride high and when I do get it to plain the front bounces like I need to lower the motor but it's already lowered all the way. If the person sits in the front it's ok or if I have more than two people the boat plains ok. Is there anything I can do or add so the boat plains better without having the second person ride in the front. As you know it's a lot smoother ride in the back.
 

tradin

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Messages
98
Re: jon boat plaining

buy yourself a dol-fin it will help big time
 

benelli

Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
21
Re: jon boat plaining

I've heard a lot of negative things about those on this forum so I'm skeptical about trying one. Also my motor is 3 months old and has a 3 year warranty so I hated to drill holes in it.
 

orion208

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2003
Messages
134
Re: jon boat plaining

Hey Tradin:Do you know if there is a dol-fin available for a single prop volvo penta 4.3.I have a 19 ft.cuddy (Wilker) and I do get a lot of annoying banging in any chop with the motor trimmed all the way in (which should bring down the bow for rough seas.Any ideas would be much appreciated.Thanks
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: jon boat plaining

star baby, the boat will handle chop better trimmed out, not in.<br />and yes they make hydrofoils for your application.
 

orion208

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2003
Messages
134
Re: jon boat plaining

Thanks Catfish:Sorry I am fairly new to boating I own a 19 ft cuddy with a Volvo penta 4.3 the gauge on my trim goes from 40 which is right outa the water to -9 which I believe is right into the engine now in rough seas without having to put my passengers into the cabin and the weight fairly well distributed how can I stop the bang in chop when doing about 30mph at 3000rpm of available 4500 rpm.Thanks
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

The problem is becoming more and more common with the indtroduction of 4 cyl. motors. Look at Trim Tabs and or Smart Tabs for both planing and handling at speeds. Lots of conversation on this site about pro and cons. I am not a fan of hydrofoils of any kind, but I have a vested interest in another device. Search the forums, but remember that boat performance is largely a function of balance. Too much stern lift when running at speeds will make the boat run bow down and cause other uncomfortable handling problems.
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: jon boat plaining

sounds like something nautijohn could help with. he sells trim tabs, and seems to know alot about boat performance. i'm not sure whether a foil could help you or not. i mean, it still may pound! just maybe not as bad. but they are inexpensive and could do the trick! i run a foil, and mine handles chop very well for a smaller boat! good luck with it, and i'm sure nautijohn will step in.
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: jon boat plaining

see, nautijohn stepped in while i was replying! :D :D
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

Catfish1;<br /><br />Thanks for the compliment, but I think I am still learning. I would be happy to help anyone with their handling problems. The main issue is that Hydrofoils are not adjustable, and the influence the boat too much at higher speeds. If the boat runs less than 27 to 30 mph the influence is manageable. Running bow down will also cause lower MPG at any speed.
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

Catfish1;<br /><br />Give me a call sometime.
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

Benelli;<br /><br />Do you make motorcycles, I used to own a Benelli made in Italy. Actually still very popular in Europe.<br />You asked the question, now you will get the long answer, because I believe there are gross misunderstandings regarding the use of trim tabs, props, and hydrofoils on smaller boat ( under 22').<br /><br />Anyway, Trim tabs are very similar to flaps on the wings of airplanes. At take off they are deployed down to gain extra lift and as the speed increases they are moved up. In turns one is moved down and the other up to keep the plane more level and the turn more accurate. These variable surfaces change the hull shape to compensate for the speed, load, balance, and outside forces ( wind) conditions. For the most part airplanes won't fly without flaps, trim tabs and rutters.<br /><br />Boat perform very similarly since they are going through a liquid ( remember both air and water are liquids). Nearly all larger boats have trim tabs which are mounted to the bottom of the transom, and used in the same manner as flaps on airplane wings. These are operated with up - down switches on the helm. There are two reasons you do not see trim tabs on smaller boats; one, is the cost of these electric or hydraulic systems in relationship to the cost of the boat. Typically $400.00 ( lowest pricing) plus 4 hour installation. The second reason is not talked about very often, and that is safety. The deployment of one tab ( say port side) without deploying the other (starboard) by accident, at high speeds, can be dangerous. Most trim tabs companies purposely make the operation slow, however this too can be a problem with an impatient operator who is deploying the tab and doesn't see the correction soon enough, and deploys the tabs even more. Over correction can also be a problem.<br /><br />The same is not true on larger boats ( 26' and up) since these boats are typically heavy, and slow ( cruise at 18 to 24 mph). Improper adjustment will cause a heavy list (leaning) but not critical. <br /><br />In short manually operated trim tabs in the hands of less experienced captains can be an issue.<br /><br />This is why electric tilt and trim is offered on I/O's and Outboards. The boat manufacturer recognizes the need for helping the boat compensate for speed, load, and sea conditions. By trimming the motor down ( also notice that the transom is tilted backward at the top) to angle the propeller so that it pushes up on the stern during take off. Once on plane the motor can be trimmed out ( perpendicular to the surface of the water) to improve the propeller bite (efficiency) and boat speed. <br /><br />The problem with this is that the propeller is very good at propelling and poor at controlling boat attitude. Does the prop angle make a difference in planing? Most certainly, but not as much as trim tabs. The good side is that it is safe. Using the propeller to fix boat handling is not efficient. For example; to improve the hole shot (acceleration to plane) you switch to a lower pitch prop, but the motor now runs more RPMs at any speed, reducing the top speed, and consumes more fuel. To increase top speed, the low speed performance is reduced. It is always a compromise when the prop is required to do double duty.<br /><br />Hydrofoils provide extra planing surface by increasing the size of the cavitation plate. They will provide some additional stern lift on take off at slow speeds. However, at cruising speeds (especially above 35 mph) they may create too much lift pushing the bow down. The motor can be trimmed up to compensate but this effect is limited, and reduces prop efficiency since it is now doing double duty, again. Lifting the boat by the motor is not advisable, for two reasons, one the stress of this extra weight on the motor components, and two, changing the concentration of lift to the center of the boat (especially on a V hull) which creates a teeter totter (side to side) effect in turns.<br /><br />Your local boat dealer and manufacturer will likely tell you that "Our boats don't need trim tabs". The key word is "need". Ask them to define their performance criteria. Will it plane without them? Sure, but the bow may point to the stars before getting on plane, and the minimum plane speed may be too much for the sea conditions, or towing the tuber,or you may need to ask Bubba Smith to move forward. Why does it porpoise? Why does it wander at no wake speeds? Why does it lean hard and slide through corners? And the list goes on! <br /><br />Please understand that I have a vested interest in one brand of Trim Tabs (automatic and self adjusting, specifically designed for boats 22 feet and under) therefore you will be best advised to research all options. There are some good conversations on this site under "Trim Tabs", Doelfin", Etc.
 

orion208

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2003
Messages
134
Re: jon boat plaining

Hey nautiJohn can you help me?I own a 19 ft cuddy 4.3 volvo penta 240 hp,I am fairly new to boating so I dont really know all the terminology with regards to "trim tabs" etc.On my shifter I have 4 buttons on the handle the top 2 (left and right) I have to press together to "raise" the motor to say "beach settings,and the bottom 2 the reverse of above my gauge settings go from 40 which is right up and out of the water to -9 which I believe to be right down tight to the transom.In the gauge it has readouts for trim and beach zones I usually find that cruising on "fairly calm waters" I run at -2 which I find comfortable in steering etc.my problem is with chop I do get a lot of banging even though I have set the motor down to -9.Am I doing something wrong???Should I have the trim set higher ie.towards beach in chop,I am confused can you help.Thanks
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

Star baby;<br />When the motor or I/O is as far down as possible the -9 is probably referring to the angle of the motor/prop. -9 meaning minus 9 degrees. 0 (zero) would be with the motor perpendicular to the water. Or another way to look at it would be similar to a compass 0 degrees is perpendicular. -9 means the motor is angled 9 degrees off perpendicular. this 9 degrees means that the prop is (under) pushing up on the stern and the bow down to help the boat plane easier. Your using the thrust of the motor to correct the attitude of the boat. The reason for the pounding or porpoising in a chop is simply balance. Everything about boat performance is related to balance. Nearly all i/o's and outboard powered boats are stern loaded ( heavy) which places the center point of balance in the last 1/3 of the boat. Because there is more boat hull forward of the center point than behind it, the bow is easily pushed up ( it has more leverage). So when going through waves, the bow is pushed up and what goes up must come down = porpoising. You correctly attempt to control this up down movement by trimming the motor down so that it lifts the stern and pushes the bow down, keeping pressure on the bow so that it does not come up. The problem here is twofold; one, the prop is not efficient at this so it can not overcome the wave action, and two the prop is always pushing up on the stern and down on the bow so when the bow is already down it is pushing more. In other words the motor trimmed down does not stop at a neutral point when not needed. What usually results is increased porpoising because of the water trying to push the bow back up to a neutral position, and once this starts you have harmonics - it becomes self generating. You probably find yourself backing of the throttle and starting over simply because you can not get it to stop.<br /><br />The name of the game is don't let it start and use a trimming device to control the attitude. The motor won't do the trick. Some people find the motor trim to be effective, but it is a matter of tolerance. How much butt banging can you tolerate? If you can tolerate a lot, then the motor trim is very effective.<br /><br />You can only control the ride so much with the motor, and doing so will cost you fuel as well as marginal performance. The people who are satisfied with motor trim, prop changes, transom wedges etc. usually have no experience with trim tabs or Smart Tabs. <br /><br />Your problem is very common, and will not be solved by motor trim or props without sacrificing other things like fuel economy, low speed and top speed performance etc.<br /><br />Let me say one last thing, I am assuming that your motor is rigged properly, especially that it is not sitting too low. The motors cavitation plate should be even with the V bottom of the hull 9 +/- 1").
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: jon boat plaining

nautijohn, (yea i know your getting swamped with questions here :D ) i have a "85" 14ft bayliner capri with a 50hp evinrude mounted 2" above the bottom of the transom, also using a doelfin hydrofoil. it handles chop pretty good for a small boat, and i am happy with the speed (35mph) but the holeshot sucks! can you set me up with something that will allow me to get a better holeshot and the same top speed? of course i would be trashing the foil, but i'm just wondering if the tabs would create less or more drag than the foil. i am always interested in any improvements i can make! i'm not even sure tabs would help a 14ft boat. what do you think?
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: jon boat plaining

Catfish;<br /><br />No problem with the questions! I'll do my best as often as possible.<br /><br />Since the S Tabs are not electric or Hydraulic, they can be put on any boat from 10' on up to 22' or more. You will not understand the overall performance difference they can make without the trying them.<br /><br />The Hydrofoils don not create so much drag as to be noticable on boats that run below 70mph. The resistance comes from the lift, at cruising speeds (ie 25+)which pushes the bow down. In this position you have too much boat in the water, or you trim the motor up more than necessary to compinsate for the extra lift. The restriction in speed comes from either too much boat in the water or inefficient prop angle, it is a comprimise.<br /><br />The are 6 models of S Tabs to choose from - you want a 9" x 8" with 40lb. Actuators. The boat should plane instantly with little or no bow rise and run 2 to 3 MPH faster. No porpoising, no low speed wander, and track like it is on rails. No Bull!
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: jon boat plaining

thats what i wanted to hear! i will be giving you a call. not right now, but as soon as i think i can afford it. who do i call? do you have an 800# or an email address?
 

billy-bobby

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
40
Re: jon boat plaining

NautiJohn:<br />fanastic explanation of the effects of trimming in/out. I learned a great deal from your clear well-written words. Excellent. thanks
 
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