Kerry vs Bush

pjc

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
1,856
Re: Kerry vs Bush

all these sumptious posts here. lotsa opinions. send same to your elected leadership. good luck that any will be acted upon. <br /><br />imo, post here and now what you have actually accomplished through local input at your county, town, or city level. <br /><br />betcha none here have done much. so sad........
 

billh1963

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 14, 2003
Messages
78
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Anyone sent the link to Hannity, Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, etc.?
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
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Aug 20, 2001
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4,163
Re: Kerry vs Bush

billh, you tax thing kinda got me a bit hot under the collar as well. The numbers look fine, but in the real world, they don't work. This country's economy is driven by the middleclass and below. The upper incomes may be paying hefty taxes, but they are not driving the economy. Also, 15% of my income is a lot more than 35% of someone elses huge income. Durable goods are horribly expensive. When a low earner needs a new car or a tv or whatever, they either go into debt or kill themselves paying for it. In the end they probably don't even buy it. A high earner can walk in and buy the same thing without thinking about it. The cost of living is brutal on a low earner, so to say that low earners are deadbeats, while tongue in cheek, isn't even sort of funny. They are doing all the crappy jobs that no one else wants to do. Everyone wants to drive the bmw, but no one wants to pick up the trash. <br /><br />As far as I am concerned, the people who are doing the dirty work deserve better than what they are getting. Should they get a free ride? No, but I can't understand why the better off are rewarded when they don't necessarily deserve it. Tell you what, go to the grocery store and tell the young check-out mother of two children that she is a deadbeat. Don't even try that "she could go to college and earn more" crap, the work force is flooded with college graduates working crap jobs because there are gobs of college grads out there. All the good jobs are taken, and less are being created every day. All that is left is taking out the trash. Bush's tax cut was the most offensive thing I have ever seen. I paid more taxes than last year, didn't earn any more, and as a result spent less. I am the example of what the majority of this country is experiencing. I could care less if someone making six figure income had to put off a vacation to the caimen islands until next year. All I care about is that I spent a ton of cash on gas prices that the administration is still doing a fantastic job of avoiding even mentioning let alone doing something about. If a candidate wants to win, they need to impress me, because I represent the working majority of this country who is growing weary of taking it in the arse so the rich can buy one more home in the hamptons....<br /><br />Both candidate suck, but right now Bush has shown he sucks, Kerry has the possibility of sucking or not sucking. For a large portion of the country, regardless of being republican or democrat, we are getting to the point of taking a chance on someone who may suck over someone who definately sucks..........<br /><br />BTW, I am technically republican, but I am currently embarassed to admit it. I won't vote for someeone just because they are republican. You can wrap a dog turd in a pretty bow, but it is still a dog turd. Truly intelligent people vote for the person, not the party......
 

Toad2001

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
403
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Amen JasonJ.<br /><br />I was going to generate a separate post wondering why people are lifelong party supporters. It would seem to me people should re-evaluate their candidate, the party, and the platform at each election time. But if someone's a lifelong democrat (or republican) or whatever as people here profess and will never vote anything but, you kind of think to yourself, why even have elections?
 

Ralph 123

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Jun 24, 2003
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Re: Kerry vs Bush

Hey Jason,<br /><br />First, the people you call "The middle class" are what most politicians call "rich" <br /><br />Second, most people get paid based on the value they create. Typically, small business owners, who think of them selves as middle class, are considered "rich" by many democrats. They are also the people who generate jobs for others and create great wealth for the nation as a whole<br /><br />Most truly rich in this country did not inherit it but created it. Look at the richest Americans in the Forbes list and you will notice that it is filled with people like Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Larry Ellison, etc - all people who created tons of wealth for that nation, tens of thousands of jobs, etc. I'd say they are truly the drives of the economy.<br /><br />If you want to live in a nation where a central government or some authority determines wages I'd say you can give China or Cuba a try. The poor are doing real well in those countries.<br /><br />The free market (you and me) determine how people are compensated in this great country. When you get your own business going do you want the government to limit what you make from the sweat of your brow?
 

billh1963

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 14, 2003
Messages
78
Re: Kerry vs Bush

What direct influence does Bush have on gas prices? Price supports don't work...neither do policies like WIN (Whip Inflation Now) that were tried in the '70's (before your time I assume).<br /><br />JasonJ you are obviously a hard working gentleman judging by your boat restoration and I applaud your work ethic. I hear in your post, however, the beginnings of socialistic reliance on the government to help control prices and "right the wrongs". <br /><br />We could all help the economy more by voting with our dollars and avoiding Wal-Mart which (in my opinion) is the single largest cause of "loss of jobs overseas".
 

kenimpzoom

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
4,807
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Guys it is really simple to vote here in the USA. Read up on the political parties, pick the one you like, and vote a straight party ticket.<br /><br />Ignore the bashing ads, ignore the lies. All politicians lie. Most of them cheat on thier wives, and have DWI's. All of them dodged the draft, or were put in easy military jobs. Accept that and move on. (Yes, I know not ALL of them have done this, but many have).<br /><br />That is why there is a two party system in the USA. Pick the one you like and vote for it, and never mind the details.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents.<br /><br />Ken
 

Toad2001

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
403
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Agreed.<br />I went into a Walmart once, was a pure hell experience (didn't buy anything) and can honestly say I have never bought anything from there. Never will either. Wife hasn't either. Principal, man.
 

Toad2001

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
403
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Ken, Very true. One even hired a hitman to murder a Playboy model...
 

lundboat

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Dec 1, 2002
Messages
76
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Here are a couple things to help you decide, on things that matter today, not 20 years ago, but today:<br /><br />Bush = Pro Life<br />Kerry = Pro Choice<br /><br />Bush = lowering taxes... but he's got a spending problem.<br />Kerry = raising taxes... likely will have the same spending problem.<br /><br />As for the economy and why we are in the situation we are in today...<br /><br />Clinton benefited from the .com boom that we all know could not sustain itself. Of course many people were better off financially during Clinton's term, but a company can only survive for so long on the cash from a hyped up IPO when they have no product, no sales and huge salary expenses. Point is, this bubble had to pop sooner or later, its no presidents fault.<br /><br />An important thing to note: Many people are better off today than during Clintons term. This country has the highest home ownership in history, over 70% of American's own their home. And as we all know, home ownership is the key to personal financial stability.<br /><br />During the Clinton administration 1 huge mistake was made. Taxes were not raised, that was a mistake. Blame Clinton for never trying, or blame the Republican Congress for not passing it if it had been pushed through, it doesn't matter now... <br /><br />There are 2 things that can influence the enconomy: 1. Tax rates 2. Interest rates. When the economy is soaring interest rates go up... taxes should have gone up as well. When the economy is struggling, interest rates fall... taxes should as well. Bush did the right thing by lowering taxes, and the Fed did the right thing by lowering interest rates. But the .com boom was a waisted opportunity for this country to pay off some very expensive programs. Taxes should have been raised and a surplus built for 2 reasons: First, to slow down the booming economy, because the bigger the bubble, the bigger the burst and Second, to establish a large surplus to sustain the government during an economic recession w/o resorting to cuts.<br /><br />My question for the government is: Why are interest rates controlled by economists and taxes controled by politicians. In a court of law, this would be seen as a conflict of interest. I personally feel that taxes should be controled by professional economists (like the Fed).<br /><br />I've seen on this board in a number of places the following: Bush = Pro Business<br /><br />Question: If Bush is Pro Business... what is Kerry?<br /><br />Answer: Don't be fooled by political word play. Here is an example of where each stand, you decide where you want your vote.<br /><br />Bush = Pro Business <br /><br />Translated: Lets take a look at the bitter war over insurance costs. Insurance companies blame the thousands of law suits that have rediculously high settlements awarded to "victims" by the juries. Insurance companies want a cap put on the award for such things as injuries. They argue that if there is no cap they have trouble calculating their risk, which is how they price their rates. <br /><br />Kerry = Pro Lawyer's Translated: Bush is in favor of this very unpopular cap policy and is labled as cold and heartless for suggesting that a monetary value can be assigned to a person's pain and misery. Lawyers argue that juries need to decide what is a fair settlement, not politicians. Each case needs to be addressed on its own merits, etc. Lawyers also argue that Insurance companies are cash cows that over charge their customers and that the high price is due to a monopolistic control insurance companies have on the market.<br /><br />Reality: Something needs to be done. Doctors are dropping their insurance coverage and are refusing to deliver babies because they can't afford their insurance. (Remember, they need to make money too). In the Pacific Northwest the #1 fastest growing business is "Midwiving" i.e. non professionals devilering babies outside of hospitals w/o insurance coverage. As distasteful as it is, the system has proven that juries cannot be trusted with this responsibility. Their awards are completely out of proportion to damages (i.e. often unintentional accidents). I put "victims" in quotes above because because the standard fee for lawyers is 45% of the settlement. Consider this when you see a "Class Action" suit. <br /><br />Example: $10M settlement<br />1,000 victims<br />Layer cut: $4.5 M<br />Victims: $5.5M or $5,500 per victim<br /><br />You tell me who wins. <br /><br />As a note: my father's medical case was used to ban a drug he was on for over 25 years (for his kidney transplant) that ended up causing him serious side affects. However, my family did not participate in the lawsuit against the company who manufactured the drug. Why? Without that drug my Dad would have died 25 years earlier, with that drug, he lived with some bad side affects. Is my family upset with the company who produced that drug? Absolutely not. But where they sued and asked to pay damages? Sadley, yes. That is the thanks they received for keeping my Dad alive another 25 years. Courtesy of greedy lawyers.<br /><br />Bush may be easily labled a greedy oil / business man. <br /><br />But...<br /><br />Kerry can just as easily be labled a greedy lawyer.
 

BigDDL

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Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
10
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Sorry to take so long in getting back to everyone. I didn’t forget about you, it’s just been hectic with a two year old son and a three week old daughter that time gets away before you know it. <br /><br />First I’d like to clarify to Pointer what I meant by that statement. I believe that self-restraint, morality, and compassion for one another are what hold a democracy (and capitalism) together. When any of these start to erode we begin to slip more and more into socialistic programs. Another way of saying this is that if the people who are better off start to become indifferent, uncaring, (and for Bill) unsympathetic toward those in poverty and refuse to offer help on their own, then government must step in and do it for them. Because of this we now have welfare, disability, social security, etc. I don’t think anyone can argue that the people at the very top of the economic ladder are getting greedier and greedier. Even Marx predicted this in his theory of how capitalism would eventually transform in socialism. He theorized that capitalists would drive down wages and monopolize to make more profit, and that socialization would be the way out. Think about it; every time there is a problem in the nation we institute a social program to correct it, and most of these problems could be rectified by some people at the top simply caring about others and not their checkbook. The most obvious that comes to mind is healthcare, and the drug companies’ refusal to bring down prices so drugs are more affordable. Think also of Enron. It won’t be too long before a national healthcare plan is instituted. I just wonder how many sick and elderly are going to die before this happens. <br /><br />Second, No, I do not think that government should be the distributors of charity, but because Compassion is quickly disappearing it is a necessary evil. I believe the founding fathers expected the churches to be the main route through which the poor, needy, and sick would be taken care of. (You really don’t want to get me started on the so called separation of church and state) Redistribution of wealth? I would only call it that in the very most extreme and radical sense of the term. Paying 35% (and I’m using Bill’s numbers) is hardly redistribution. If it was more like 50% I might be a little more inclined to agree. <br /><br />Third. Bill, I never said the millionaire shouldn’t have his four course meal. I will clarify and say that what I meant was that he shouldn’t be complaining when the low wage man gets to keep his entire sandwich. Neither man wants to pay taxes. The poor man out of NEED, the rich man out of GREED.<br /><br />Fourth. I believe in helping those who want to help themselves and their families. The drug dealer and the druggie in the ditch have no compassion from me until they truly want to mend their ways. Many times, however, good people get caught in foolish situations, especially during their younger years. We’ve all been their, doing some things that we later regret. I guess what I’m saying is that we shouldn’t be judging people, esp. those like the welfare mom, the man on disability or unemployment until we know the true story. Another thought, how can we expect the single mom who stays home with her kids all day and works a job at night attend school to better herself? How can the lower wage father who works all day and watches the kids at night so his wife can work a lower wage job (to help make ends meet) even get the opportunity for training for a better job? Because those better off lack the compassion or sympathy to help out in even the smallest way, government must kick in and provide assistance. Wham, another socialistic program. Why is it there? Because those in a position to help failed to do so.<br /><br />Lastly, I in no way favor socialism over democracy and capitalism. Reluctantly, I’ll admit it is now a necessary evil. As for Kerry vs. Bush, I plan to vote republican due to Bush’s stance on certain moral issues that I find more important my financial beliefs. <br /> BigDDL
 

Ralph 123

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Jun 24, 2003
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Re: Kerry vs Bush

The most obvious that comes to mind is health care, and the drug companies’ refusal to bring down prices so drugs are more affordable.
Have you ever studied the cost structure of a drug company? Do you know how much money it costs to bring a drug to market? Do you know how many drugs never make it to market? Have the drug companies made life better and increased the longevity and quality of life of humans? Do you think they are just greedy Martians who don't care about people or do you think they are just people trying to do their best in every aspect? Do you think you charge to much for your labors? There are people in Mexico and China who think so....<br /><br />If you want to end the flow of new drugs and better health care, simply institute any kind of price controls. The free market and entrepreneurialism may be imperfect systems but they have produced far more, faster and using the fewest resources of any system ever devised by man.
 

billh1963

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Oct 14, 2003
Messages
78
Re: Kerry vs Bush

Good to hear from you.<br /><br />I don't believe I said anything in my post that was indicative of am I sympathetic or not toward the poor....I don't think you read my own background. Am I sympathetic....heck yes. Do I believe that I should be taxed at the rate I am to solve their problems (of which many are self inflicted as a result of bad choices)...NO! <br /><br />Don't forget that the total sum of charitable contributions increases every year...just look at the Jerry Lewis Telethon. I'm not sure what your theory of a "reduction in compassion" is based on. The wealthy give the most in charitable contributions anyway... since they have the most to give by your definition.<br /><br />35% is approaching "redistribution of wealth" in my book. By the time state tax, social security, medicare, local taxes, etc. are added you are at 50%. I think you would be pretty frustrated if everytime you got a paycheck you watched half of it disappear before you even saw it. Why don't I deserve to keep more of it? <br /><br />The best we can ever do is agree to disagree. The problem these days is that many of the arguments put forward by the Democrats are based on emotion ...not fact. The trouble with an emotion is that if it's yours then you are always right and everyone else is wrong. They can't be argued because they are emotions...how do you argue with someone who says "I feel this way"? You can't.
 

BigDDL

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Jan 24, 2004
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Re: Kerry vs Bush

I must first say that I deeply respect anyone who has worked as hard as Bill to get himself where he is. I say that sincerely and without sarcasm. <br /><br />In a nutshell, it's not reduction by compassion. Very simply, I believe that the more immoral, impersonal, and uncaring we become the faster socialism creeps into the US.<br /><br />As for Ralph, if you look into the amount of money the US government has give the drug companies in grants for research, well, we the people should be getting a heck of a lot better deal then we have now.<br /><br />Very true bill, we'll have to agree to disagree. I apologize to everyone for my posts straying from the topic. See you on the water!<br /> BigDDL
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Kerry vs Bush

As for Ralph, if you look into the amount of money the US government has give the drug companies in grants for research, well, we the people should be getting a heck of a lot better deal then we have now.<br />
What grants? How much? To whom? What did the government get in return?<br /><br />All government related projects I have worked on, the public owns the results. It can't be patented. It becomes public property. So what "overpriced" drugs on the market were the results of government funded research?
 
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