Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

POINTER94

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Ralph,<br /><br />I agree with you. I was being sarcastic/humorous in my post. I'll try to be a bit more clear in the future.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Boomyal - Very well said. It is THE BIG LIE and it makes me angry every time I hear it. All it does is promote class warfare and play on the fears of the common man.<br /><br />I was worried there for a minute Pointer :D
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

not percentage of total taxes paid Ralph, actual<br />individual % paid.<br />you don't think they are actually paying 50% do<br />you?<br />avg. joe makes $30K and pays say 20% or $6,000/yr.<br />big $dude makes $1.5 million, but has a high $<br />accountant and a financial planner who have helped<br />him take advantage of the current tax laws and<br />shield a large portion of his income as non-taxable and <br />leagally claims $250,000 income. he is taxed at<br />50% so he pays $125,000 in taxes...<br />compared to $6,000, he is paying a much higher<br />percentage of the actual taxes collected in this<br />country.<br />but it's only really 12% of his income...<br />if he payed 20% like avg. joe, it would be $300K
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Yes - close to it with Fed & State. There are very few tax loopholes anymore for the individual... No only is the magnitutde of taxes paid greater, the % of income paid is also greater.<br /><br />
They pay income taxes at the top rate, now 38.6 percent, compared with a maximum rate of 15 percent for the majority of lower-earning taxpayers.<br />
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

sorry, edited my last post while u were responding<br />Ralph.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

The truth is very different MY. Your example is just made up with no basis in fact.<br /><br />First, a guy making $30K is taxed at 15% ($4,500/yr) then you deduct his mortgage interest, any dependent deductions and any 401K savings or IRA savings and the guy is lucky to be paying 5%-10% net.<br /><br />There are very few tax shelters for income. No accountant or lawyer can tax advantage of laws that don't exist. Most, if not all, were eliminated as part of the Reagan tax reform.<br /><br />You can't even shelter income by taking perks because they get taxed as income based on the value of the perk.
 

Bondo

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

It is THE BIG LIE and it makes me angry every time I hear it. All it does is promote class warfare and play on the fears of the common man.
Ralph,<br /> That's How the Liberals Work........<br /><br /> Fear ,<br />And Lies ........<br /><br />OK, Distortion of the FACTS.....
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

bondo, libertarian, not liberal :D <br />liberal is insult...<br />Ralph, at $30K, he can't afford to take the tax<br />breaks u mention, so most r payin more.
 

waterinthefuel

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Like a wise man once told me..<br /><br />"I've never gotten a job from a poor man."<br /><br />I don't mind rich people, they give jobs to people like me. If we tax the **** out of them then the gov't gets the money, not the employees.
 

plywoody

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

You start from a flawed premise, rolmops, in that what the left wants is the antithesis of what the right wants.<br /><br />And idealogy, which is what the right tends to argue, is a far cry from reality to the point the argument simply gets silly.<br /><br />"We want a smaller, less intrusive government" Well, under Bush, we have had the largest increase in the size of the government ever.<br /><br />You have to treat each issue separately, and then break them down to small, understandable chunks.<br /><br />For example, energy policy. "We want to get less dependent on foreign oil" Well, that's a noble goal, but if you only have (less than 10% of the known reserves, and consume 25% of the resource), there is no way possible to not be dependent on foreign oil. And increasingly so. Certainly ANWR with its relatively small supply would not even put a dent in it.<br /><br />We cannot drill our way out of dependence. We can invent our way out of it (ie hydrogen) or perhaps conquer our way out of it to increase reserves(Iraq) or we have to change the way we do things, (ala Europe)which has huge tax rates and $5.00 a gallon fuel. Of course, Europe has far superior public transportation, and as a result do not consume near as much fuel as Americans.<br /><br />But if the government is not going to fund inventing our way out of this problem, the economics of it must, and there is no way to independently develop and market the hydrogen product when energy in this country is still relatively cheap.<br /><br />But the problem is really, from an idealogic standpoint, that the conservatives offer solutions that won't work, and make no sense in any event, whereas the liberals (some of them, at least) offer solutions that are unpopular (higher fuel taxes, and funding alternate energy technologies).<br /><br />You can take virtually any economic situation we face and parse it the exact same way.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Oh so true. What an unsuccessful country those nasty free market conservatives have created here. Yup, you can't beat the Gov. for improving the lives of it citizens. Hey, if we keep it up, we can live as well as the Cubans or Russians. Well, maybe at least as good as the French?
 

POINTER94

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Plywoody:<br /><br />If I was to believe you than these facts are lies? I thought the left had a plan for the creation of new jobs, oh wait no plan, just skewed numbers and attacks on the current administration.<br /><br />The left has effectively sabotaged the use of Nuclear power while their role models the French get of 50% of theirs from Nuclear. Where is this power to come from?<br /><br />Ah yes, natural gas, not the most abundant resource available but we will force everyone into using it, and the cost to heat the 3 bedroom home becomes astronomical due to dwindling supplies. But thats ok. We can blame the suppliers for gauging.<br /><br />(Q)Hydro-electric? (A)No way! That would force the fish to swim around that capitalistic monument to greed and selfishness. We can't have that.<br /><br />(Q)Renewable resourses like wood? (A)Are you crazy, what about the spotted owl, and the snail darter the the common house fly..<br /><br />(Q)Coal? (A)And kill all our children. Nuts, you rich capitalists really want to kill the poor.<br /><br />(Q)Explore and find new reserves of oil and natural gas? (A)And interrupt the intimate relationship of the caribou and their mating ritual, you people really want to destroy the world don't you.<br /><br />(Q)Solar is nice but not really viable at this time is it? (A)You visionless idiots! If you spent as much money developing solar as you do advertising SUV's we would have it available by now!! You want to run the poor into the ground yada yada yada....<br /><br />(Q)Hydrogen cell tech? (A)Darn tootin', and if you rich, overweight and frequently intoxicated conservatives cared this would be available at the Circle K now.. What did Clinton your hero do that GW hasn't?<br /><br />The left is wonderful at exploiting the developments of the industrialists and using their advances against them. You have no answers, and you have no clue what private industry is doing to develop new technologies. Anyone who was on to anything wouldn't smear its alpha tests across the cover of popular science.<br /><br />It isn't that the natural resources are not available it is the scare tactics of the left that has made perfectly good sources financially unfeasable due to regulation, or the gathering of the raw materials illegal. <br /><br />When in doubt, tax the hell out off it. If anyone is going to use it we are going to punish them for it. Tax Tax Tax.<br /><br />Why does it always come down to money with the left? Cigarettes, Gas, Boats, SUV's, liquor.... Anything to line their pockets and make people dependant on their good judgement. Why is gas $5 a gallon in Europe? Because they are socialists!!! This is a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. The government is to use taxes to sustain itself not as punitive, social policy measures. But there again, the left always seem to know whats right for all of us.<br /><br /> http://www.anwr.org/docs/ANWR_jobs_brief.pdf
 

POINTER94

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

No problem Ralph. I need to take a deep breath and have a drink.. :mad:
 

Boomyal

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Originally posted by plywoody:<br /><br />"We want a smaller, less intrusive government" Well, under Bush, we have had the largest increase in the size of the government ever.
Alas, Plywoody has finally swerved into the truth here, however this fact is not going unnoticed by the conservative community. The question becomes, is there any viable candidate that will, at least, work toward the Reaganesque philosophy. Certainly not from the other side of the aisle.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

I loved it POINTER. Direct, simple and TRUE! I laughed my butt off...
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption, that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them." - Alexander Hamilton in Federalist No. 21, December 12, 1787
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

I'd be all for a national sales tax and a repeal of the income tax Skinny. It is not "progressive" enough for the left though. They consider sales taxes to be regressive (unduly burdening the poor) for the most part...<br /><br />Then again, we in Boston have been known to throw overboard items with sales taxes associated with them :D <br /><br />Progressive taxes are unconstitutional in MA. The State income tax is a flat tax.
 

Boomyal

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

That sounds pretty conservative Ralph but when ya gonna dump the Swimmer? :D
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Left, Right,Conservative,liberal.

Originally posted by Ralph:<br />I'd be all for a national sales tax and a repeal of the income tax
couldn't agree more. some sort of consumtion tax<br />in place of Income tax makes more sense to me.
 
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