Magic Minimum Number

rlb2252

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
110
I have heard?on both this board and others?marine sages state emphatically that the minimum vessel length to take on big water starts at some magic point.

They insist that to venture off-shore aboard a vessel of less than a specific length is not only foolhardy but quite possibly suicidal. What is that magic minimum number? And whatever the answer, isn?t it absolutely arbitrary?

If you believe 20? is the magic minimum number, those going out in a 19? are what? Crazy?

If you believe that magic minimum number is 24??what about those in the 23?footers? Nincompoops, one wave away from being swamped, capsized and drowned?

Mathematically, I find it hard to believe that off-shore safety begins at some magic number. It would seem to be more progressive, as in a boat of 20? would be half as stable as one of 40? and a 40? half as stable as one of 80?.

So, in your opinion, what is the magic minimum number? And more importantly, why?
 

Capt'n Chris

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
461
Re: Magic Minimum Number

What mathematics did you use to compute your conclusion? I would think that the length of the boat would be the least of concerns about how far one "ventures" off shore, or anywhere else for that matter.
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Magic Minimum Number

I think it all comes down to what the mfg desighned your boat to do.
rob
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,383
Re: Magic Minimum Number

A couple of guys just completed a trip from the US to Europe in a 21' boat so anything is possible if you have the skills.

You?re playing Russian roulette every time you leave the dock. Not everyone comes back. There are scores of very good seaman killed every year when the unexpected happens.

The question is, how confident in your piloting skills and how much of a buffer do you want between a day of fun on the water and certain death? How lucky do you feel?
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,383
Re: Magic Minimum Number

I think it all comes down to what the mfg desighned your boat to do.
rob
Then explain the thousands of massive ocean going freighters that are sitting on the bottom of the oceans around the world. Where they not designed for the task?
 

rlb2252

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
110
Re: Magic Minimum Number

What mathematics did you use to compute your conclusion? I would think that the length of the boat would be the least of concerns about how far one "ventures" off shore, or anywhere else for that matter.

If the length of the boat--by which I mean size--is the "least of concerns about how far one ventures off shore,"--what is the primary concern? Beam? Freeboard? Keel design?
 

KB_85_V20

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
82
Re: Magic Minimum Number

My brother in law and i took his 24' CC robalo with Yamaha F350 out 30 miles and were intending to go out to 70 miles. we would have but the seas were pretty rough that day 3-4 foot. We got caught in a pretty bad storm and ended up heading for home at 45 mph through 4 foot waves getting airborne more times than we wanted but all in all it did great. really it depends on how big your jewels are. the bait guy that day was out in a 14' carolina skiff and a rain suit getting beat to death by the waves but he was making a killing. would i take a bass boat 50 miles out? no. but i have taken a jonboat with shovels for paddles out in the gulf a few hundred yards!! its all about the waves not the boat.
 

windsors03cobra

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
1,191
Re: Magic Minimum Number

Being new to boating I'm not sure what offshore is I think it might be ocean related. I live on a GREAT lake and this morning it is semi glass and boats are everywhere.
The fishermen are nuts around here when it comes to getting anything and everything out on the lake to fish. The fishermen were really fishing the mouth of the river last night, and I saw 2 boats that were a bit scary for the conditions a tiny inflatable about 4' long with a 10hp and 1 pole trolling an d a older bass boat with what looked to be about 12" of freeboard and those low freeboard fishing boats are pretty common round here.
The fishermen only troll the mouth of the river when the fish run up river and the fish have been running and jumping up the river for about 3 weeks now. Normally most fishermen go 10-15 miles out and they take anything from 14' foot tinny's to 35 foot cabin cruiser converted for fishing. It astounds me the number of people that go 15 miles out onto lake Michigan and are comfortable with it.
Even in somewhat light rough conditions like 3'-4' waves I will see little tiny flat bottom jon boats with 9.9's launching into lake Michigan to go over and onto the river, its only a mile along a rocky coast but I would hate to have that boat get pushed into some of those rocks, just gotta get those kings and bass. :D

I have a smaller boat and just go out when the water is not so choppy and the forecast is good. A little un common sense goes a long way in this regard, I live a minute and half from the lake so when it looks nice I go out and when it looks rough I stay home. Some folks drive 2 hours to their water body and its rough and they go anyway cause they drove all that way, this could get a person in trouble. Someone on iBoats mentioned Morro Bay Ca having this problem quite a bit.

I do not know that magic number. I'll say depends on the boat, its condition and the competency level of its crew.

I have also seen kayak fisherman 1-2 miles out and at night without lights.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Magic Minimum Number

I've been out 26 miles in a 21 footer and considered going to the same place in a 17 footer, and on the right day I would not hesitate on this particular trip. It depends on so many factors that this discussion's only value is in slaying any hard and fast rules for what is an extremely squishy topic . . .
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Magic Minimum Number

Doubt that there is any magic "minimum number". Lots of sunken huge vessels out there, but people have crossed the Atlantic in boats of less than 6' several times. Depends on your skill and luck!
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Magic Minimum Number

I have heard?on both this board and others?marine sages state emphatically that the minimum vessel length to take on big water starts at some magic point.

They insist that to venture off-shore aboard a vessel of less than a specific length is not only foolhardy but quite possibly suicidal. What is that magic minimum number? And whatever the answer, isn?t it absolutely arbitrary?

If you believe 20? is the magic minimum number, those going out in a 19? are what? Crazy?

If you believe that magic minimum number is 24??what about those in the 23?footers? Nincompoops, one wave away from being swamped, capsized and drowned?

Mathematically, I find it hard to believe that off-shore safety begins at some magic number. It would seem to be more progressive, as in a boat of 20? would be half as stable as one of 40? and a 40? half as stable as one of 80?.

So, in your opinion, what is the magic minimum number? And more importantly, why?

There is no magic length. I would rather be in a 13 foot BW skiff 30 miles offshore than in a 23 foot Bayliner bow rider one mile offshore. An 18 foot Grady cc might well be safer offshore than a 26 foot lake cruiser with inadequate pumps and bilges that rapidly collect water. One is meant and intended for the purpose and the other isn't.

Where did you these odd ideas? No, a 40 foot boat is not twice as safe as a 20 foot boat, there is no such magic formula.

Offshore safety results from a number of factors, the primary one is that the boat should be made for the intended purpose, it should be self bailing and able to clear water from the decks rapidly, plenty of fuel, good power to weight ratio, plenty of bow volume/displacement, it should be strong and durable.

Having a good boat that is capable you still need some additional equipment:

1. A knowledgeable and prepared skipper (charts, tides, weather etc).
2. A vhf radio
3. A hand held vhf
4. A cell phone
5. Signal equipment, flares, distress flags, signal mirror, smoke flares, red dye marker, flash light, strobe flasher etc
6. First Aid Kit
7. Survival supplies, fresh water, etc
8. Adequate and available life jackets
9. PLB
10. Membership in Towboats US or Sea Tow

I routinely run offshore in our 19 foot BW Outrage as far a 30 miles or more one way. It was built to handle rough water, it will not come apart after a pounding nor show even any weakness. There are plenty of other fine boats for going into saltwater, Grady, Edgewater etc, dozens, what they have in common as I said are self bailing, self clearing sealed decks, large flared bows to get up and over waves, good power, outboard powered (or inboard) and super rugged construction.

Again, I just use my judgment and based on my experience, for offshore work, I prefer something larger, about 22 feet or larger, for near shore a good 17-20 foot boat intended for rough water use is entirely adequate.

OK, where does coastal or near shore end and offshore begin? Depends on the area and more importantly the distance to a safe harbor and the types of conditions that prevail. I usually draw the line around 12 miles but again there is no rule book. As I said, I routinely travel twenty or thirty miles offhore or from safe harbor but I only do it under the best conditions, typically, I stay very close to a safe place.

Here is a rule of thumb when visiting an area. Watch the locals, if they go out, I go out, when they go back in, I go back in. They move, I move. They know the area and the weather and sea patterns so it is good to follow them. If you are trolling and look up and there are no boats anywhere where an hour ago there were dozens scattered about and they all picked up and headed in, well, you should have already been gone and going.

Tides and waves and current and wind and inlets are always a potentially dangerous confluence, you can have one and two foot seas outside but in the inlet, an outgoing tide, onshore wind and waves, you can get impressive standing waves over the bar that are dangerous to even salty vessels. That is the kind of knowledge you get from locals and studying charts and tide tables etc.

All things equal, a bigger boat is better for offshore, no doubt. Especially if it is two feet longer than yours.
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Magic Minimum Number

Other boats around both big and small, I am happy:

P8060041_edited-1.jpg


An inlet can be dangerous and yet paradoxically it represents safety:

StAndrewsJetty.jpg


You want a boat built like a tank but hopefully a little more bouyant:

IMG_1657_edited-1.jpg


Thirty miles out on the Timberholes:

IMG_1601_edited-1.jpg


There are big fish out there too:

DSCF0317.jpg


It is not always like this, glassy smooth. One mile offshore but approximately eight miles from the inlet, which is more important to safety?:

P8060035.jpg


The forecast was great, water glassy, winds light, but, things went downhill. As we boarded the boat from our last dive I heard the vhf crackling, people were hauling tail for the inlet, we got underway and with a black squall line peaking over the horizon and headed our way at 70 MPH, we made haste. It was important to get to the inlet before the squall line cut us off, thus the throttle went down. Two boats capsized thirty minutes after we made it through the inlet to safety. Be Prepared!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8-NwS32RG8

So, to finish my story, a good forecast and smooth water met the morning. By the time we completed our dives we were in 1-3 foot seas. By the time we made it to the inlet we were against 3-5 foot seas and there were 6 plus foot breakers over the bar. The larger boats blasted through but a handful of small boats including us laid off the inlet like surfers gauging the wave sets. I waited for a "calm(er)" period and then gunned the Whaler up on the back of a nice roller an drove it across the bar to safety. Within minutes of us clearing the pass it got really bad. On that day, 19 feet was enough for me, thirty minutes latter, 24 feet was not for another poor fellow.
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Magic Minimum Number

Then explain the thousands of massive ocean going freighters that are sitting on the bottom of the oceans around the world. Where they not designed for the task?

"most cars can go 100mph, but you dont do it on iced up roads"
and you dont take a canoe to Hawaii just because it floats
but the question was why did all the big ocean going ships sink?
because crap happens:D
rob
 
Last edited:

Tubingluvr

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
426
Re: Magic Minimum Number

I don't believe there is any magic number.
I believe it is a combination of the boat, the conditions, and the operator.
An operator that doesn't check the marine forecast before going out and continue to monitor while at sea could be a disaster in any size boat.
While a well prepared and knowledgable operator in a 17' boat may be ok.
 

BLU LUNCH

Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
1,316
Re: Magic Minimum Number

There is no magic length. I would rather be in a 13 foot BW skiff 30 miles offshore than in a 23 foot Bayliner bow rider one mile offshore. An 18 foot Grady cc might well be safer offshore than a 26 foot lake cruiser with inadequate pumps and bilges that rapidly collect water. One is meant and intended for the purpose and the other isn't.

I routinely run offshore in our 19 foot BW Outrage as far a 30 miles or more one way. It was built to handle rough water, it will not come apart after a pounding nor show even any weakness. There are plenty of other fine boats for going into saltwater, Grady, Edgewater etc, dozens, what they have in common as I said are self bailing, self clearing sealed decks, large flared bows to get up and over waves, good power, outboard powered (or inboard) and super rugged construction.
I have a 1974 Wellcraft V-20 CC I have had this boat out over 20 miles with no concerns, the wide brow , self bailing, sealed deck, 8 foot beam on a 20 footer, the picture really shows the brow.

PDR_0042_1.jpg
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: Magic Minimum Number

Never sell seamanship short, its not possible to buy a boat big enough to make up for that lack of it.
And the only way to get it is to take your boat where you might not want to be and learn.
 
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