Magic Minimum Number

[QC]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Ship happens:

 

[dingbat]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I've had some pretty gnarly inspections but nothing like that!

Darn Spell check

 

[dingbat]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I have had this boat out over 20 miles with no concerns

That's the type of attitude that gets people killed.

How is your boat more seaworthy than the one in the picture? We know how this played out.

 

[BLU LUNCH]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

That's the type of attitude that gets people killed.

How is your boat more seaworthy than the one in the picture? We know how this played out.

Wrong answer, it's peoples lack of common sense, inexperience and stupidity that get them in trouble.
What picture you referring to?
My Wellcraft?
For your information that hull from the start was famous, originally a Ray Hunt design, the Alin V-20 steplift was a offshore racing hull. From 1965-1968 V-20 won the 185-mile Miami-Nassau Ocean Power Boat Race, Wellcraft bought the design in 1969 and came out with there V-20 boats in 1970 with the hull unchanged for the next 36 years. The boat are proven offshore boats, reliable and safe in choppy conditions. There is a website dedicated to the V-20. Thanks for your concerns but I been going out there for the last 30 years.........

http://www.wellcraftv20.com/gallery/cat_1970/02_G

 

[sho3boater]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I used to run lake michigan a lot in offshore deep vee type boats, the most common there by far. I would get a 24' to run there so I could go out most days, and get away from most storms if I had BBC power. Sure people go out in 16' rowboats and smaller I would imagine, on calm days. The problem with small boats is you can't go out there many days. Mind you this is mostly running up shore and not out into the lake over a couple miles, but you can still be many miles from an inlet. There are people with cats that can run 100mph, but I hardly ever saw them on the big lake and we were out there all the time. Like said, it depends on your use. Yes we outran some nasty storms too, you always kept an eye on the horizon even with a great forecast. Also depends on the water; the great lakes get waves that tear boats up while the ocean has swells more often. There is no way you get on lake MI with a little boat when it gets rough, even a 21' is tough to run and with big storms a 24 is worthless.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Wrong answer, it's peoples lack of common sense, inexperience and stupidity that get them in trouble.
What picture you referring to?
My Wellcraft?
For your information that hull from the start was famous, originally a Ray Hunt design, the Alin V-20 steplift was a offshore racing hull. From 1965-1968 V-20 won the 185-mile Miami-Nassau Ocean Power Boat Race, Wellcraft bought the design in 1969 and came out with there V-20 boats in 1970 with the hull unchanged for the next 36 years. The boat are proven offshore boats, reliable and safe in choppy conditions. There is a website dedicated to the V-20. Thanks for your concerns but I been going out there for the last 30 years.........

Sorry forget to post the picture.

You are correct; stupidity and bad luck are what kill people.

Your comment "I have a 1974 Wellcraft V-20 CC. I have had this boat out over 20 miles with no concerns" would seem to imply a cockiness towards the situation based upon a particular boat design. The minute you have no concerns about heading 20 miles offshore in any boat is the day you need to hang it up. Compliancy kills.

I know the history of your boat very well. Ray designed my hull as well.

http://www.huntdesigns.com/production-gradywhite.htm

 

[BAproject]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

depends on the boat....

most have made sensible deductions on what to do and what not to do.

Lot of common sense involved here.

I have a 20' Bayliner bowrider, and even with 2 bilge pumps (@800 gph) I would be damned if I do anything more than hug the coastline on a reasonable day.

The only way I would venture far off shore, would be weather permitting and water like glass....as soon as any of those descriptors change, then I go back.

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Ship happens:

The "Mojo" leaving Morro Bay, CA.

Due to the foreshortening effects of the telescopic lens, it is not evident that if he had hugged the north jetty (on the right) he'd have stayed clear of the breaking waves. By hugged, I don't mean right next to. He could've been at least a boat length away from the jetty at the closest point and still stayed in blue water.

Some harbors require you run straight out to the sea bouy before turning on course. This is one of them.

 

[jdlough]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Tides and waves and current and wind and inlets are always a potentially dangerous confluence, you can have one and two foot seas outside but in the inlet, an outgoing tide, onshore wind and waves, you can get impressive standing waves over the bar that are dangerous to even salty vessels. That is the kind of knowledge you get from locals and studying charts and tide tables etc.

high'n'dry...

Most excellent points, especially that the conditions at the inlet may be drastically different (and way more important) than the nice, comfy conditions at sea. Watching the locals is also a great tip.

Great pics too. Posts like this are the reason I come to iboats forums.
Thanks for your efforts, I know that took some time. Keep them coming!

Iboats should have a way to give 'field promotions.' You're no "Seaman Apprentice"

Jim

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Magic Minimum Number

High n dry's post should be required reading. However, on the list, only #1 will get your boat there and back. The rest, although essential, won't drive the boat.

There are some experts around here who fish offshore on specially fitted jet skis, even in the winter. Others are catching 60 pound drum in the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay in kayaks. They know their stuff and have the equipment (e.g. survival suits). Look around tidalfish.com.

Remember that old saying "It ain't the size of the boat it's the motion of the ocean?" True dat.

I recommend that people look for safe ways to test their boats in conditions that they wouldn't otherwise go out in. For example I went out in a new to me boat in high wind conditions in the summer, where hyperthermia isn't an issue, so I'll know what to expect this winter fishing. I tested large ship wakes from all angles and several speeds, because there's only 3 waves in the set, not a whole bay full!

 

[rlb2252]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Again, I just use my judgment and based on my experience, for offshore work, I prefer something larger, about 22 feet or larger, for near shore a good 17-20 foot boat intended for rough water use is entirely adequate.

Good answers, High. But one question: Why do you prefer a larger vessel for off shore work if boat length is not a factor?

 

[jdlough]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I recommend that people look for safe ways to test their boats in conditions that they wouldn't otherwise go out in. For example I went out in a new to me boat in high wind conditions in the summer, where hyperthermia isn't an issue, so I'll know what to expect this winter fishing. I tested large ship wakes from all angles and several speeds, because there's only 3 waves in the set, not a whole bay full!

Another excellent point. Know your boat.

I tested my SeaSwirl 2100DC, and especially my teenagers new 16' Wahoo 85HP/OB, doing every stupid thing I could think of, to find the danger points.
I feel much better now, and feel I'm a better boater, knowing what each boat is nominally capable of, and it's faults.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

The length of the boat is so far down the list of considerations that to ask the question would indicate one still has more to learn than can be discussed or learned here.

----- No, there is no 'magic number', nothing even close. One guy can be more capable in a 12 foot canoe than another guy can be in a 50 foot power boat. Depends on the boat and the skill & knowledge of the operator.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Sort of related to this topic & some might find this of interest. For decades, the preferred 'high end' sport fishing & charter fishing boats of Bermuda were the lapstrake Jersey sea skiffs built in New Jersey (Sandy Hook Bay area, just south of NYC). These were single & twin-screw inboards in the 28' to 45' range. When a new boat was needed, the routine of the fishermen in Bermuda would be to fly up to NJ in the fall to make the rounds of the boat yards and pick out a boat they liked. They would have the yard store the boat for the winter, and in the spring they would call the yard and have the boat readied for the season, with the additional request to strap aboard some spare fuel tanks so they could make the 650 mile run to Bermuda (sometimes these were neoprene 'bladder' tanks strapped up on the foredeck). The owner & a couple of friends would then fly up from Bermuda, check the boat out for a couple of days, and then take off around the tip of Sandy Hook and head the 650 miles straight to Bermuda. No GPS, No radar, No Loran, just a compass and an RDF to pick up Bermuda when they got within a hundred miles or so. My dad had to talk his way off one of those boats late one night back in the early 70's, as friends of theirs were heading out the next morning. About 4 days later they arrived just fine at St David?s Bermuda with their new Hans Pedersen skiff.

The size of the boat is no substitue for, and can not make up for the knowledge & experience of the operator.

 

[rlb2252]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

The length of the boat is so far down the list of considerations that to ask the question would indicate one still has more to learn than can be discussed or learned here.

In fact, this is specifically my point. I did "learn" it here, from other posts on Iboats, that suggest that one should only venture out onto large bodies of water with vessels above a certain length.

My curiosity about those kinds of bold, blanket statements led to the original question of what that magic number is. Or whether one even exists.

To a large extent, the notion that there is a magic number has been largely dispelled in this thread. But believe me, tomorrow or next week or next month there will be another thread that will suggest that boat size is a major determinate of big water safety.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I didn't mean for my reply to come across in a negative way (& I apologize if it did). As has been partially addressed by others here, there are SO many factors involved in the decision of what is acceptable weather for a certain boat that one just can't cover the topic, or learn what is needed by just asking questions & reading. Every boat handles differently and has different limitations.
For those who do not have the knowledge & understanding to make the decision on based on the individual merrits or limitations of a certain boat it certainly is safer to say 'you need a boat of xx feet to go out farther'.
My dad used to say that 'a good boat will be able to take a lot more than the people aboard her'. Unfortunately, so many boats today are designed for appearance & what can be crammed aboard in the way of accommodations that a LOT in the way of sea handling capabilities has been compromised & lost.
I completely agree with your last statement, and it is unfortunate that even though it is a major factor, it semms to be presented as the overwelming factor with little consideration given for actual knowledge.

Given the choice of being on a larger boat with inexperienced people or a smaller boat with people that REALLY understand what they are doing & I'll take the second option any time.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

High n dry's post should be required reading. However, on the list, only #1 will get your boat there and back. The rest, although essential, won't drive the boat.

There are some experts around here who fish offshore on specially fitted jet skis, even in the winter. Others are catching 60 pound drum in the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay in kayaks. They know their stuff and have the equipment (e.g. survival suits). Look around tidalfish.com.

Remember that old saying "It ain't the size of the boat it's the motion of the ocean?" True dat.

I recommend that people look for safe ways to test their boats in conditions that they wouldn't otherwise go out in. For example I went out in a new to me boat in high wind conditions in the summer, where hyperthermia isn't an issue, so I'll know what to expect this winter fishing. I tested large ship wakes from all angles and several speeds, because there's only 3 waves in the set, not a whole bay full!

Tidalfish!!!

What can I say

 

[rlb2252]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

I didn't mean for my reply to come across in a negative way (& I apologize if it did).

Thanks, Ned. I think internet forums are sometimes poor substitutes for conveying the tone, inflection and nuance that the spoken word can. Consequently, wrong impressions are sometimes given, thin skins can be pierced (as mine oftentimes is).

As regards the Magic Minimum issue: This thread, hopefully, will put to rest the misunderstanding that boat size is the most significant factor in big water capability.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Magic Minimum Number

Stating the length is relevant; you need context.
when people (with experience) talk about length it is usually "short-hand" for the whole package. If a bunch of my friends are deciding whose boat to use to go striper fishing, or whether to go out, the first question is length, b'c they are all salt water sport boats. When someone says 17' I know what he has b/c there are no bass boats, canoes, sea kayaks, or hydraplanes in the discussion. If the otehr guy says let's take my 21' we know it's not a pontoon or deck boat. If someone has one of those Bayliner sofa boats with the bow pointed down like a scoop waitnig for a tugboat wave or adverse tide/wind, we all just quietly move away....

Generally, additional length means larger motor, larger capacity and higher freeboard. Those are safe assumptions when comparing 2 different length boats to go out in. So length is a good starting point to discuss capability. The next question is design. Here, with so many different boating styles, that has to be clarified at the same time. Not so in a group of similar interests.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Magic Minimum Number

No problem Rlb, I know what you mean. - I am just looking to share some knowledge & experience when I can without offending anyone (no need for that)