More Ethanol Debate

[Silvertip]

I caught the last few words of a comment on the radio a few days ago regarding Minnesota mandating 20% ethanol blended fuel. When I got home I did a little investigating and found that to be true. By 2013 or possibly sooner that may indeed be a requirement. We've been using E10 since 1997 with little difficulty but I'm wondering how far they can push this issue without making some modifications to older motors. We are also big users of E85 here but not in outboards of course. High concentrations of ethanol get corrosive and that's why E85 is trucked rather than piped to delivery points. Some fuel system components may be seriously impacted but I'm sure the people in the state house have researched this fully and know what's in our best interest. Yea - Right!!! Stay tuned.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

yep
we be from da gubbermint nd we is hear to halp youns.
my country I love, its my govt I mistrust.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

but getting back to the debate, ever look up how much energy is required per gallon of ethanol combined with the fact its only half as powerful as gasoline?
the burn ratio is something like 7/1 almost double that of gasoline.
so reality says it is not worth it with todays technology.
would be better to concentrate on the oil sands while waiting on the alcohol or hydrogen technologies.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

so reality says it is not worth it with todays technology. would be better to concentrate on the oil sands while waiting on the alcohol or hydrogen technologies.

Problem is the tar sands crude is very low quality and must be cut with higher quality crude oil to make it marketable. Now enter ethanol to the blend and you can make the oil go farther and give the farmers a new product to sell. Initially, ethanol came from waste corn, but as it becomes more prevalent we will see more farms growing corn just for ethanol production. In fact it has already happened. Environmentally speaking ethanol and increased corn production is actually a step backwards.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

thats what I was refering too, the energy cost of producing corn when there are much better materiels than corn to make ethanol.
its why Brazil is pretty much leading the way. of course they have the advantage of a year round growing season and sugarcane grows like weeds there.
but in the US Ethanol is just not a sustaiable solution. it feels good as a knee-jerk reaction but most folks dont consider the energy costVS energy return on ethanol.
I was watching a show on the oil sands not long ago, they actually were not cutting it,they were making a synthetic crude.
the technology is still expensive but once oil hits 150 a barrel it will be more than worth producing especially as it naturally burns cleaner than crude nd is easier to refine to various petrolem products.
that and the fact the US and Canada has a tremendous amount of tar sands it would mean a lot less reliance on unstable foriegn suppliers. we could rely on our own unstable suppliers .

 

[Chris1956]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

There is an article in USAToday ssying that GM is funding a new Ethyl Alcohol manufacturing process that uses waste wood products and produces alcohol on a large cheap scale. If true, this will drive the oil companies wild, and they will move to buy up the process.

BTW - Brazil supplies all its energy needs from domestic oil production and alcohol from sugercane. it is a real success story, lead by the Brazillian Gov't. Their Gov't officials obviously do not have ties to the oil bidness, like the US Gov't.

Also BTW - How come the US does not make alcohol out of sugar beets? We grow lots of them in the US, and due to their high sugar content, one would think the alcohol yield would be greater.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

they actually were not cutting it,they were making a synthetic crude.

Yes, but that particular product does not meet the standards of gasoline quality crude. It is too high in surphur and lowend hydrocarbons. They mix that crude with a higher quality crude and make "sweet blend". At least in the Canadian tar sands.

Either way, oil is not the future. It is the present. And the tar sands actually create a huge problem in themselves. They are truly an environmental nightmare. Hopefully, we can improve on our current technologies or develop new ones that will finally end our dependence on oil foreign or otherwise. I'm not saying there is no place for oil, but its not viable as our primary long term energy sollution.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

That is why Ill be getting one of the first hybrids lol



The CraigCat E2 Hybrid is powered by both gas and electric and features an easily removable portable generator. The portable generator can be used for camping, hunting, fishing, etc. It comes equipped a powerful 55-pound thrust electric outboard motor for zero water pollution. They are super efficient using less than a gallon of gas in eight hours of running time. Interesting, saw them at the boat show recently

 

[Silvertip]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Ethanol production is very highly subsidized besides using a lot of energy to produce it. Large amounts of water are also consumed in its production. That said, it is currently 60 cents/gallon cheaper than E10/Regular so I do run it in my flex fuel Impala. Mileage as expected is lower but as long as the fuel cost is 35-40 cents difference it pays to use it. Prairie grasses are being considered for production as well. Corn prices have gone up considerably as a result of the E85 issue so food and feed prices are affected as well. Proves that you try to fix one problem you create a couple more new ones.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

I'd use it too if I could, Silvertip. I just hope when I'm ready for a new truck in 5-10 years that they have some more fuel efficient options. I drive a 3.0L Ford Ranger and its mileage is not much different than my F250 turbo diesel work truck.

Briggs & Stratton have an electric outboard on the market. Its still too cumbersome in my mind, but its a step in the right direction. From what I remember it is the equivalent of a 3 hp and takes 2-4 group 29 deep cycle batteries (I think 4) with a total run time of 4 hours.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

I know the feeling on the Ranger, my 4.0 with 4wd nd 4.10 axles gets less than my old 87 3/4 ton 4wd chevy with a 5.7, but o well.
if the govt would step out and NOT subsidize growers we would see massive steps in production rechnology.
however they are being paid well to do the same old same.
I tend to agree that Oil is not going to be the future however its what we are stuck with for now.
I like the hydrogen fuel cell, however after years of watching Joe sixpack on a cell phone at a gas station I cant imagine self serve Hydrogen centers .

 

[guy74]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

if the govt would step out and NOT subsidize growers we would see massive steps in production rechnology.
however they are being paid well to do the same old same.

Is that really the way you THINK it works?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

yes mostly, I saw it to many times, especially with tobbaco in my area.
tends to push the little guy with innovation out.
but in any case corn for ethanol production is not a viable solution, takes to much to produce to little.
myself, the govt should not subidize anyone and the market will take care of itself.
its amazing what private enterprise can do with profit as a motive.
low intrest loans? maybe. paying a farmer NOT to grow anything? definately not.
the US is one of the few countries that has the capeability to produce more than we consume. if and only if the free market is allowed to operate.
but quotas and subsidies tend to flatten things.
should be no quota on how much of anything anyone cn grow. if a farmer grows it and it does not sell odds are high the farmer will find another crop, that I have seen in a few countries.
then the market can adjust itself and there is no artificial pricing.
but as ethanol has a fairly short shelf life, doesnt lend itself to piping and storage well and is usually blended at the distribution terminal it just takes way to much energy to produce than what it gives back. the wood method produces methanol which has its own isues,some similar to ethanol and some totally different.
I get tickled listening to folks about saving electricity, really is no way to "save" AC current.you can save on your bill but the current is generated reguardless.
now whether the generating facility has the production capeability is another story.
but if the unit produces 8 Mw and only 6Mw are used the other 2Mw are not saved,simply not used, costs the producer the same.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Was on the ag page a couple of days ago and saw one of the articles about using prarie grass as Silvertip mentioned. Seems corn costs too much to grow and this stuff is much more efficient. Course it isn't free. Everything has it's hangups.

Now since you opened Pandora's Box, any of you guys in agriculture? Priced fertilizer lately? I just had the local supplier out to soil test my fields and the rumors you hear about $500/ton fert are true.......and guess what, ethanol is helping the problem.

Also, the price you get for your beef at the sale barn is directly tied to corn futures. Guess where corn futures have gone??????? through the roof. (Wonder why) Guess where cattle prices are going????????? through the floor.

The reason is that your annual harvested "feeder calves" go to the feedlot to put on some fat and gain some weight. Guess what the prime feed ingredient is? So the higher the price of corn, the more it costs to feed them out, so the less they pay for the stock so as to maintain a consumer price that is affordable. Otherwise the stuff would rot on the grocer's shelf cause nobody could afford to buy it.

I obtained my information from the owner of the sale barn where my calves are auctioned off. If he doesn't know then who does? I had figured that the time of the year was more important as I usually have spring calves to wean in October when the winter pasture is up and running....usually. So I asked him and got the different reply.

So you get to pay out the zingy for fuel and fert to produce a crop to feed your cattle and get stuck-up at the sale barn........oh yeah and there is the price of steel that you need in your equipment to work this crop (implement/tractor/truck) too.

Might as well throw in the towel and go fishing. Any body know of any good fishing holes where you can put in a row boat?

Mark

 

[External Combustion]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Rodbolt1.0:

You are somewhat correct and somewhat incorrect on the fuel usage at a powerplant. Just like your car or outboard it takes a certian amount of energy to idle a powerplant. For dirt burners and other steam plants, figure around 20% just to get them ready to put out the AC. For IC plants such as gas turbines and diesels figure around 14 %, but they come on line much faster.

The rest of the energy consumed is strictly proportional in use. The more megawatts the more fuel, just the same as your home emergency generator.

The major heartache with power compani8es is that they have to build enough generating capacity to satisfy the peak demand and still have some left over so they can have a couple of turbines off line for overhaul/maintenance, etc. Unfortunately the rate payer has to pay for needed excess capacity.

 

[guy74]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Well, I am a corn grower. I DO NOT recieve any direct goverment subsidies for growing corn, those subsidies in the past were not to give the farmer any extra money, just simply to depress the markets to keep food cheap. All I hear from people is how much the high corn prices are making the farmers rich. For average farmers like me, all it has done is increase the money changing hands, what is left over at the end of the year has accually gone down over tha last few years. Our revenue has gone way up, but the expences have more than matched it.
Do I think ethanol from corn is the answer, NO, I don't but what else can I do. One thing I notice about the info that the people that are against corn ethanol put out for you all to read is that X number of bushels of corn are used to make ethanol. They don't tell you that only 1/3 of the in used up in ethanol production, the remaining 2/3 goes back out as livestock feed. But in all the figures I see published that fact is left out to make it look that much less efficient. Seems anyone can maniplulate the facts to favor which ever side you are on.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Guy74, thats what most the farmers in my area are bitching about. seems the biggest subsidies go to the farms that need it the least.
and just like commercial fishing,yes most all the rest of my family either fishes or farms or both, the price of fuel and food is killing them. not to mention the price of equipment.
average life of a V6 outboard or an I/O package is about 3 years. costs about 13K to replace it.
crab pots now are roughly 30 dollars a pop once rigged and diped. they have to be dipped at least once a year, barrel of dip is about 900 and does 200-250 pots. pots last 2 maybe 3 years if your lucky. if you dont run at least 400 pots a day you aint gonna make it.
right now Ethanol is simply a knee-jerk reaction from a clueles govt.
not only are there more efficient ways to produce ethanol there are better crops to make it.
thats what I was refering to, the energy cost to make fertilizer,spread it,dry the corn,plow the field,field maint,harvest,transport,distill and transport yet again by truck as Ethanol doesnt pipe well. its a diminishing return for most areas of the US.

 

[guy74]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

Guy74, thats what most the farmers in my area are bitching about. seems the biggest subsidies go to the farms that need it the least.
and just like commercial fishing,yes most all the rest of my family either fishes or farms or both, the price of fuel and food is killing them. not to mention the price of equipment.
average life of a V6 outboard or an I/O package is about 3 years. costs about 13K to replace it.
crab pots now are roughly 30 dollars a pop once rigged and diped. they have to be dipped at least once a year, barrel of dip is about 900 and does 200-250 pots. pots last 2 maybe 3 years if your lucky. if you dont run at least 400 pots a day you aint gonna make it.
right now Ethanol is simply a knee-jerk reaction from a clueles govt.
not only are there more efficient ways to produce ethanol there are better crops to make it.
thats what I was refering to, the energy cost to make fertilizer,spread it,dry the corn,plow the field,field maint,harvest,transport,distill and transport yet again by truck as Ethanol doesnt pipe well. its a diminishing return for most areas of the US.

Glad to see were on the same page. Around here 99% of fuel is transported by truck anyway, not much in the way of pipelines around here. Gasoline isn't a free ride either, it takes quite a bit of energy to refine it too. You are right though, corn based ethanol isn't really any better, exept the money stays here, and makes jobs here.

Have a good day,
Brian

 

[DJ]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

rodbolt1.0,

You must be wrong because I completely agree.



Silvertip,

The one thing that is left out of the debate is that ethanol, or methanol, (pick your poison) simply does not have the same amount of energy (BTU's) in it that gasoline has. It's simple physics. Thus you use more of it. Add that little fact to what rodbolt said regarding the energy required to produce it and it quickly becomes a loser.

I know Venezuela uses a lot of it. However, they're are not bound by the same environmental laws that we are and they deal with performance issues, in automotive anyway.

Our engines are getting more efficient, every year. The automakers have every desire to get every ounce of power they can out of gasoline and they are. There are some exciting things coming. Mandating an alternative fuel really plays havoc with engine makers ability to concentrate on one technology and improve it. There are just so many resources one company has. Diluting the effort slows down the advance of real technology.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: More Ethanol Debate

To be fair to the farmers and politicians (I can't believe I said that), ethanol from corn seemed to make sense way back when they were only using waste corn. Unfortunately, when you create a market for something it has to be filled. We will have the same problems if biofuels ever take off.