my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

[bandit86]

I believe in Karma, also known in different views as do onto others as you want them to do onto you, eye for an eye, the golden rule, basically whatever version is popularly called.

So knowing this, I try to live my life accordingly, but like all great beliefs, I came to a roadblock.

When does a deed that looks bad really good or vice versa? For example, if i lived in 1937 and killed Hitler. Killing anyone is bad as near as we can tell. Even though in 1937 hitler hasn't really done anything yet, killing Hitler would have prevented the holocaust, would I bee seen as a murderer or a hero? knowing the after effect's it's easy to judge, but would the Universe see it the same? by the way, I dont want to kill anyone, it's all hypothetical.

Now, not so extreme, if I see a guy breaking the law (nothing overly serious), should I call the police, knowing that in my past I broke the law the same way and not got caught? I see people with burned out brake and tail lights driving at nights, should I call the police? I mean, it is an offence, but I wouldn't like it if not knowingly my lights were burned out and someone called the police on me. I try to catch up to them, 9 out of 10 dont know and appreciate the heads up, the 10th is acomplete idiot about it.
But what about their life I don't know - suppose he just lost his kids - I'd have an attitude too, he doesn't need more crap piled on his plate, maybe with a clear head next moring he'll get his lights fixed. It's not right to call the police because someone gives me attitude just to get my way. But what if someone doesn't see him and rear ends him and someone really gets hurt. Then I should have called the police. but how can I judge others and decide how their future should be affected?

I dont sue people ( I had opportunities) but I don't, because I wouldn't want to get sued. I read somewhere in the Bible (another long story) about a king who forgave a large debt to someone, then that said someone went and tried to collect a debt from someone else that owed him. The king, having heard of this, took the first someone and threw him in jail, because if he had his debts forgiven he should have done the same to the next guy.

Now what the bible didn't say, what if the second guy owed a whole lot more to the first guy then what the first guy owed to the King. A king can easily forgive a debt, he's got more money then he'll ever need, but an average Joe may need every penny to survive. Was he really wrong in collecting? If my bankruptcy forgives my debt (again, theoretical) of say $10,000, would I be wrong to try to collect say $50,000 from my brother or neighbour? I only went bankrupt because my brother owed me and never paid and I fell behind my bills.

I hate my supervisor at work, been asked to work unsafe, he lies, uses very unethical ways to get his way. bot not quite breaks the law. If I lied to get him back, would I be any better?

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

That's a pretty deep thread there buddy and will force me to use my single brain cell on hyperdrive.

I've always said two wrongs don't make a right. I'm also not a snitch, and unless I witness a violent crime, I'm not going to tell on anybody, with the exception of someone stealing my stuff or breaking into my home or a neighbors home. If you call the cops to report a broken tail light you won't have to worry, they'll laugh at you and I can just about promise the guy you snitched on will never have a thing done to him. Why would you first run to the cops in that situation? The possible scenarios of his life you named are in a group of unlimited possibilities, I'd say go and tell him yourself and his personal problems are his to deal with. Why not just tell him yourself? I mean I'm sure he'd rather you tell him than a cop you sent to tell him, don't you think? How can anybody get mad if you kindly go up to him and say, "Hey buddy, I just wanted to let you know I saw your tail light was burnt. I didn't want you to get a ticket"? I don't know anyone that would get mad in that situation. I can promise the cop wouldn't be that nice.

Is the entire situation with the bankruptcy thing theoretical? I would say you aren't wrong to demand your money from your brother or neighbor. I've watched enough "People's Court" and "Judge Mathis" episodes to know that when someone is sued over a loan, the judge never asks if the plantiff has declared bankruptcy. That's quite irrelevant. As far as the religion thing goes, I'm not going to get into that. If your religious beliefs prevent you from collecting, then that's your decision.

As far as your job goes, why would you need to lie to get back at your boss? If he's that bad, why not tell the TRUTH about him? Or...simply report your boss to OSHA. That way you could remain honest and be doing the right thing. If you are caught in a lie, then you lose credibility. Why do that? What's to gain? So to answer your original question if it was about lying about your boss, I'd say the only time it's ok to lie is to save a life. Other than that, honesty, in my opinion, is always better, even if it doesn't feel like the best thing to do.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

Pretty plain and simple to me..what goes around, comes around...(sure a few idiots get in the way, but makes life a little more intersesting..and paybacks are always a *****..)

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

As for minor incidents with other motorists, I'll let them know if they have something visible with their car if it is convienent. I know I would appreaciate the same. However, it is placed on the operator to know what is working on the vehicle before they get in motion.

As for drunks n druggies, yeah I call them in as they ARE a hazard to the others on the road.

Lots of people get down on their luck, but you didn't make their decession to put them in that situation. I'll only get involved if it relates to me or the family.

I try my best to treat others the way I would like to be treated plain and simple.

 

[JB]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

"I hate my supervisor at work, been asked to work unsafe, he lies, uses very unethical ways to get his way. bot not quite breaks the law. If I lied to get him back, would I be any better?"

Is "working unsafe" just your opinion or is it violation of OSHA rules? If so, report it. You need to change jobs.

 

[Mark42]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

I believe in Karma, also known in different views as do onto others as you want them to do onto you, eye for an eye, the golden rule, basically whatever version is popularly called.

.... ....

I hate my supervisor at work, been asked to work unsafe, he lies, uses very unethical ways to get his way. bot not quite breaks the law. If I lied to get him back, would I be any better?

I beleive you answered your own question with your opening statement. Refer to your own belief in Karma, etc to resolve your dilemma.

 

[v1_0]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

I believe in Karma, also known in different views as do onto others as you want them to do onto you, eye for an eye, the golden rule, basically whatever version is popularly called.

These are not quite the same... in application.

When does a deed that looks bad really good or vice versa? For example, if i lived in 1937 and killed Hitler. Killing anyone is bad as near as we can tell. Even though in 1937 hitler hasn't really done anything yet, killing Hitler would have prevented the holocaust, would I bee seen as a murderer or a hero? knowing the after effect's it's easy to judge, but would the Universe see it the same? by the way, I dont want to kill anyone, it's all hypothetical.

At the time you would have needed to make the decision - 1937 - you would have no way of knowing what was to follow.

It's not right to call the police because someone gives me attitude just to get my way. But what if someone doesn't see him and rear ends him and someone really gets hurt.

The real question is: what is the right thing to do NOW with the information I have NOW?

After the fact analysis should only be used to evaluate the process used to make the decision. That's the only thing it can improve.

In the case of the light - all you can go by is probabilities. Note that in the example (gets rear ended) that possibility is the product of more than just one thing. The second person is following too close, isn't paying attention, going too fast to react, etc. Personally, I rate the probability of accident from tail lights out as fairly low. (Heuristically: haven't heard of too many accidents from tail lights out.)

Now - if I saw what I thought was a drunk driver, that is another story. I rate the probabillity of accident or some bad outcome much higher in this case. Same with reckless driving - weaving in and out of traffic, etc. I'll call on those and similar.

I dont sue people ( I had opportunities) but I don't, because I wouldn't want to get sued. I read somewhere in the Bible (another long story) about a king who forgave a large debt to someone, then that said someone went and tried to collect a debt from someone else that owed him.

Yes, the "Parable of the Unmerciful Servant".

The king, having heard of this, took the first someone and threw him in jail, because if he had his debts forgiven he should have done the same to the next guy.

Now what the bible didn't say, what if the second guy owed a whole lot more to the first guy then what the first guy owed to the King.

The numbers used in the Bible - 10,000 talents and 100 denarii are deliberately chosen. 1 talent = several thousand denarii, 1 denarii was about a day's wages - this would make 1 talent a slight bit less than year's wages for a normal person! 10,000 talents would be what - about $50,000,000 in today's money, not counting inflation.

The possibility that you ask about - the second servant owing the first servant more - isn't 'in the bounds' of the parable, as the parable is about the relationship between God (King) and us (servants).

A king can easily forgive a debt, he's got more money then he'll ever need, but an average Joe may need every penny to survive.

If you wish to keep this simply in earthly terms: kings need money too. They have countries to run.

Was he really wrong in collecting? If my bankruptcy forgives my debt (again, theoretical) of say $10,000, would I be wrong to try to collect say $50,000 from my brother or neighbour? I only went bankrupt because my brother owed me and never paid and I fell behind my bills.

This was the prevalent thought process at the time. On the other hand, why did you loan out 50K when you couldn't afford to do so?

I hate my supervisor at work, been asked to work unsafe, he lies, uses very unethical ways to get his way. bot not quite breaks the law. If I lied to get him back, would I be any better?

I suspect that this is your real question.... Well, there are laws (OSHA) about what is safe/unsafe. Lies and unethical ways are generally frowned upon by companies (in 'external facing' areas) - they can cause reputation damage. Internally, they are less visible and less likely to be acted upon without a need.

First, and most important, is documentation and corroboration of each incident of behavior. (You don't want to be obvious about collecting it, though.. ) Then, after you have sufficent documentation, you can and should go to HR (or equivilent) with this. Keep pushing. It becomes the company's responsibility to act on it. If they do not act on it, or if they fire you for it - then you go to court. (By the way do not give your records away to anyone but your lawyer, copies yes but never the originals...)

I see that you have some hesitance to sue - I can understand that. However, sometimes it is the appropriate and necessary thing to do.

-V

 

[57whitehouse]

Re: my moral dilemma - it's a long long read

v1 O, very well put.

There should also be an ethical hotline in place at most companies. Feel free to use it, lots of documentation if possible.