Need help rigging an etec

[Patfromny]

Ok, so my brother is up there and he did some testing today. First, he took the boat out with the pontoon prop. 23.6 mph I think. No good. The old 35 went 25-6. So he put his 13.75 x13 prop on and it went 28.3 but at almost 6000. 5996 I believe. So I am now certain that the mechanic didn't even try the prop I sent up. It should get me closer. It is a 13.5 x15 prop. The mechanic has been great and I guess he's just way busy. He lent my brother (computer engineer/programmer) the laptop and showed him how to work the program so it was accurately tached. I also found out it has 448 hours on the motor but only 299 on the emm? Is this normal? I have pics from my brother of all the different screens if interested. Never had low oil. 550 something start cycles. Etc. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Max Emm temp was 107 I think. I'll try to post these screens tomorrow if you guys would like. Might be late as I have softball.

 

[Patfromny]

I just got some info on the 13.5 prop. A little baffling but we think we figured it out. The boat went 30.4 mph so I'm happy about that. The tach read 5100-5200. I couldn't explain the massive rpm drop off but finally looked up the prop and in the description it says cupped. It's an evinrude 765182. I am guessing but thinking the cupping is more aggressive than the non cupped? By the 200 rpm formula dropping 2 inches in pitch and a 1/4 inch in diameter should have dropped rpm by 300 or 400. Instead it went down 800.

 

[jakedaawg]

The 200 rpm thing is just a general rule when changing props of the same general size and style.

When you start changing other things you can get wide changes in RPM due to factors such as more stern lift, less stern lift, bow lift.....When you start changing the actual blade/propeller design it gets even more difficult to predict for someone who has not done it before. Like going to a cleaver, or a semi-surfacing set up, or ventilation....

 

[Patfromny]

Thanks jake. I realize that now.:facepalm: the reason I changed the prop style was simply because those were the two I had available for free. What would you recommend from here? Cupped, non cupped, larger or smaller diameter? Sorry if I'm putting you on the spot but my thread in the prop section is bearing no fruit as of late. My brother says they both leave about the same ( hard) and this video might help in telling me what you think. The boat seems to be on plane in about 2 seconds.



The prop on it now is only spinning it at 5100-5200 and is a 13.5 x 15 prop. Pn 765182. Any suggestions? Should I stay with that style and drop to 13 pitch or would I benifit from a smaller diameter? It will mainly be used to blast around the lake with me or my wife, daughter, and I on occasion. I would be happy with a good all around prop to start and maybe play with it a bit next year to see what kind of speed I can coax out of it. Basically just trying to get the boat in the power range at this point

thanks for helping me this far. I am learning quite a bit more about props than I expected.

 

[82rude]

For your peace of mind that motor is rev limited.You can over rev but the motor will start dropping a cylinder so you don't cause damage.My faria tach is dead on as confirmed by the laptop so theres a possible tach choice.My etec is the 2011 60hp.set for tcw3,and I use mystic semi-synth now but was using Pennzoil semi-synth with zero issues.Iuse 2 different props depending on how heavy I load the boat.15p omc sst for heavier loads and a solas 17p 4 blade amita for lighter loads.The sst will hit 6000 rpm and the solas 5800 or maybe a tad more depending on how much gas I'm carrying.When I go to camp I carry an excess of gas ,24 gallons for the etec and 5 for the kicker.Idealy you want the motor to be between 55-6000 rpm.The 60 etec produces its 60 hp at 5750 and I believe the 40 is the same.Mine hits the revlimiter at 6250 which I did once when prop testing and was confirmed by the tech.

 

[Patfromny]

Thanks rude. I remember you thoughtfully telling me that earlier in this thread. you're post is probably the only reason i didnt scream at my brother for using the boat with the loose prop on it. I'm a car guy and I have gone thru this type of thing with my first car. I had to set up the convertor to work with my cam rpm range and the diff. Gears. While considering the weight of the car as well. Each factor was as important as the other. I have learned that, at least with cars, once the engine gets past the max rpm of the cams power band the car will "nose" the etec was rated at 40 at 5500 I think, which means the power drops off from 40 after that. Probably pretty drastically in fact. Think of a bell curve. Although it might be able to live above there, you are probably nosing or not at peak power while over 5500-5600. Not being up at the lake, I am only assuming it was nosing but an engine is an engine is an engine. I'm pretty sure it will be fastest while at 5500-5600. I had a street racer Mustang back in the 90's that was the perfect car to take anyone out and prove this point. It almost felt like you shut the car off when you over reved it. I basically want to get the boat at 5600 and see what I have. My emphasis is max speed but I am finding that with all these different prop sizes, it probably isn't economically feasable to buy a bunch of props and find that sweet spot. So for this year, I think I'll just try to drop 2 inches in pitch with the 13,.5 diameter and see what I get. This is because I just don't understand it all and couldn't take an educated guess at what size/pitch combo will squeek out every last mph. Maybe I'll bring it up early next year and leave it with that large shop near me that will prop it for me. That has to be cheaper than me buying props everyday until the end of the summer. plus I'm pretty sure my lake mechanic would have my head for taking his laptop everyday. He has been super generous so far. I don't want to push it.

 

[Patfromny]

BTW 82...what is tcw3? I know nothing about this engine yet, plan to read through the shop manual over the winter. If that is possible. Haven't received it yet. I was also looking at farias. Thanks for the opinion.

 

[82rude]

tcw3 is an oil rating or should I say minimum standard.On the etec there are 3 settings.heres a pdf operators manual for the etec 40-60 hp motors.pay attention to page 20 for oil requirements.For some odd reason I cant give you a link.Simply search online for 40 hp etec operators guide at it will give you several sites were you can go through the manual.Save it to your comp for future reference.

 

[Patfromny]

Cool, thanks for the tip. Was going to order one but will read through whatever is available online in the interum. I haven't even looked under the hood of this puppy. Snapped a few shots and had to go home. I like understanding how things work before they stop working. lol. Drives my wife nuts when I read the instructions thru before rereading them while assembling my daughters " barbies dream condo " too many years ago.

 

[jakedaawg]

Pat, I am gonna be really straight forward here...

You have an old tin boat, with out a pad, few lifting chines if any. It wasnt made for speed. You only have a 40hp motor. Just put a normal straight prop of the appropriate pitch and be happy, probably a 13 pitch. If you had rebuilt it super light with no floor and such you may have been able to hit mid to high thirtys, maybe forty if you only put one seat back in. With only 40hp your gonna have to be happy at twenty five to thirty and your gonna waste a ton of money looking for more. Not trying to be rude, just realistic.

As far as the oil goes, like I said earlier, have it programmed commercial or TCW3 same thing. But, as opposed to the other post use only the evinrude oils. XD50 would be my choice and what I recommend. You spent alot of money for the motor, use what the factory wants. Why try to save a few bucks on cheaper oil when you have a several thousand dollar investment. An Etec is not your grandpas old johnson that you can use thirty weight in. It is a sophisticated engine and the factory spent some time, and went broke (with its predecessor, the ficht) figuring out the oiling. Just my humble, yet somewhat experienced, opinion.

 

[Patfromny]

Always appreciate your input jake. I did have him set it to commercial, at least I asked him to do so. My brother has an 11 etec 40 on his pontoon and has used only evinrude oil I'll check to see if it's xd50. I do understand about the boat being more of my grandpa's bow rider (I know I stole your line sorry). But it interests me to see how fast it will go. I am not going to buy a bunch of props. I'm a house painter/ finish contractor. I can't afford to do so. The neighboring lakes marina has offered to lend me a few props to try but I'm not too confident in finding one anymore. More on that a bit later.

I did have a few questions. Do you think 448 hours is alot? The pc. Said it had 448 hrs. But the Emm only had 299 hrs. Does this mean the Emm went bad and was replaced? My brother says he hooked the laptop up to his and it read less emm hours then engine hours too. I was thinking maybe the emm only clocks hours after a certain rpm but that doesnt make sense to me. If my assumption is right then i assume the boat was used alot to troll. He says all works well and it is smooth and quite.

The other question is, in part, a story. I can't seem to find the proper pitch for this boat. I seems I am stuck in a gap of prop offerings and am a bit concerned. The speed thing can wait or possibly, at this point, be shelved completely as I am finding it near impossible to just get this thing to 5600. After searching for either a cupped 13 pitch or a non cupped 15 pitch in the same diameter range I came up empty. I wound up with the number to the Turning Point tech support rep (phil). I was trying to buy their 12.5 x 13 pitch cupped prop but they wouldn't sell my hub kit with the prop. He had owned his own prop shop for 33 yrs. And worked for TP FOR 7 or so. He listened to my test run stories and said something like Oh Boy. He then explained that with the larger gear case I might not be able to find the right prop. He said that the gear case was toomlarge for the 12.5 prop and the engine would cavitate from the exhaust blow by or something.He said that the engine is way too small for the boat and for this reason the right prop might not be out there. It sure seems to be the case. He thought the best I could do was to take the 13.75 13 and have it re-pitched to 14 and have it cupped. Well, this sounds ok if it works but I don't want to have to buy a new prop and then have it pitched and cupped every time someone hits a rock. He gave me a number to a prop guy and I called. The prop guy said he had an old style OMC prop that was 13.75 x 15. He said it was, in his opinion, one of the best props made for these things but that they don't make it anymore. Jeez. So I have one prop that might work on the way that I might have a hard time replacing. Does any of this sound correct to you? Phil had eluded to the fact that if the engine was closer to the boats max HP rating (90) that I would be able to prop it easier. This is not an option for many reasons from financial to most importantly, a 40 hp max rule for my lake. I am understandably frustrated and a bit pissed that there is this gap in prop offerings. Evinrude seems to have left an 800 rpm gap in their line up. If I looked closer I'm sure I'd find several of these throughout their line. Kinda bush league to me, but that's probably because I'm stuck in one of these gaps. I still do have the local marinas offer of some props that I'm gonna try but after that I think I'm out of ideas.

 

[82rude]

When it comes to props youre sorta like me.I use to over think my options.Pick a prop that gets closest to your max wot rpm,s and be done with it!You actually have hundred of options because of the largegear case.My previous motor was an 82 90 hp evinrude.All my props from that motor fit my etec 60.My older omc sst 15p prop is one such example.With such a small motor on your boat you may never get perfection and most likely have to settle for 2nd best.As for oil.use what you want to as long as its tcw3 rated at the least.Not wanting to start an oil war so I will leave my thoughts to myself.I will tell you one thing though.This is right from evinrude as I called them to check on this.The absolute best is to have your motor set to the xd-50 setting(tcw3) and to use xd-100 oil.Remember one thing also,the leaver on the control box is not a warm up leaver its a winterizing leaver.The computer takes care of warmup etc .

 

[jakedaawg]

From reading your resto thread and this one and me knowing next to nothing I dont think you want a cupped prop on that rig.

Also, you dont have to rely solely on pitch. Decrease diameter slightly tongain more rpm without loseing speed. Any prop shop worth their salt can do this. Yes, hole shot will tecnically suffer but not much if your only taking off 1/2" or so.

Like i thought earlier try a non cupped 13 or possibly 15 that really should get you close. Then decrease diameter in 1/4" increments till you hit your 5500. Just one old guys opinion. Also keep in mind that stainless and aluminum pitches run a little different. But really expensive and if you hit something you twist and break shafts in stead of cheap prop blades.

 

[82rude]

YES jakedaawg I should of put in a provisio that I know my area of boating like the back of my hand,so using a stainless is no danger to me atall .I got a stainless because it was basically free from my prop shop friend and for no other reason.75 percent of the time I use my solas amita 4 blade .

 

[Patfromny]

Thanks a bunch guys. I appreciate you staying with we through my mind numbing adventure. I am truely at the point of just wanting to get her into the power range suggested by evinrude. The unfortunate thing is that there doesn't seem to be a prop available to do so. I tried the 13.75 x 13 non cupped prop my brother uses and it lit the thing up to 6000. At 28 mph btw. A 13 pitch with the 13.75 means my diameter increase can only go a 1/4". Which means no 13 pitch. I doubt a quarter will bring it down 400 rpm. Next was the 13.5 x 15 thinking that the 15 pitch would drop us right into the 5600 range. Nope, that one runs faster at 30.4 but only spools up to 5200 because it is cupped. So, like I have said, I need either a 13.75 x 15 non cupped or a 13.5 13 cupped to achieve 5600 ish. No such animal exists as far as I can tell. I have abandoned all such thoughts of speed in Lu of just getting this damn thing into evinrudes sweet spot.it seems that I have inadvertently put my self in the black hole of propping. Each closest prop is off by 400 rpm. What should I do now. I don't care about cupped or non cupped at this point, I want a prop that will just get me less than 400 rpm away from right. If anyone knows of one, let me know. I certainly can't find it. Evinrude hasn't made one. So now I think i must delve into the aftermarket world and start over but guess what...the after market world makes all the same sizes and doesn't deviate from the norm. They do claim that they squeeze mold and provide aggressive cups and rakes. Great, what does that mean to me...start over but this time it'll be a hundred and 20 each time you want to try one. Looks like I will concede defeat and get a small gear case 40 by next year. It is honestly not worth the effort to make this thing work. I have one or two more props to try and then there will be an etec for sale on CL in ny. It isn't worth the effort so far much less the expense of starting over with aftermarket. And I will be sure to buy a mercury so brp can kiss my a**. Sorry for the rant guys, just at the end of my rope with what should have been an easy process.

 

[82rude]

Your correct rpm range is 5000-6000 not what is stated on this site in props that's wrong!LOOK in specs in the brp owners manual!So 6000 with the 13 is perfect .See my reply in props .Because your so underpowered anyother motor will most likely be worse.In no way shape or form is a merc 40 or oder omc 40 going to be better than you etec.Because of your setup ,40hp on 90 rated you will have these issues with any 40 probably even worse .

 

[Patfromny]

From reading your resto thread and this one and me knowing next to nothing I dont think you want a cupped prop on that rig.

Also, you dont have to rely solely on pitch. Decrease diameter slightly tongain more rpm without loseing speed. Any prop shop worth their salt can do this. Yes, hole shot will tecnically suffer but not much if your only taking off 1/2" or so.

Like i thought earlier try a non cupped 13 or possibly 15 that really should get you close. Then decrease diameter in 1/4" increments till you hit your 5500. Just one old guys opinion. Also keep in mind that stainless and aluminum pitches run a little different. But really expensive and if you hit something you twist and break shafts in stead of cheap prop blades.

Wait a sec...what did you say...I think you said you read my restore thread up there in that quote box Grey thingy. Well thank you very much. I could post that I was having chest pains and my right arm was numb on that thread and noone would respond. Watermann is my only faithful responder on that thread and it seems like we are just PMing each other most times. I respect his opinion and he has helped me out a bunch thus far. I do have a few guys that pop in to bolster my spirits when needed but for the most part, that thread should win the award for fewest responses to a build thread. Lol The lack of responses is why I started this thread here, and also in the prop section. I know I have been kinda all over the place with this thing but have taken your advice to heart. The objective now is to just get her into the 5400-5600 range with no bells and whistles. When I started, I thought there would be an endless supply of props to try and that I could tune this thing to within a hundred rpms and make it as fast as possible. I have since learned differently. There seems to be two props that get me close. They happen to be the two I have. The 13 pitch I have isn't cupped and it spins the engine at 6000 so that can't get any better. The 13.5 is cupped and is a 15 pitch. That is the fastest one but only spins at 5200. These two props are sequentially numbered and there doesn't seem to be another in between so I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I no longer care about cupped or non cupped, I realize I don't have too many options. I just want a set it and forget it prop at this point. Not that it matters with the props available to me but just for my own education, why do you think I wouldn't want a cupped prop? Just trying to learn a bit hear from someone who knows a whole lot more than this hack in front of my keyboard.
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the time and effort you have put forth so far. Especially when half the time I was off on another tangent.

 

[Patfromny]

Your correct rpm range is 5000-6000 not what is stated on this site in props that's wrong!LOOK in specs in the brp owners manual!So 6000 with the 13 is perfect .See my reply in props .Because your so underpowered anyother motor will most likely be worse.In no way shape or form is a merc 40 or oder omc 40 going to be better than you etec.Because of your setup ,40hp on 90 rated you will have these issues with any 40 probably even worse .

Thank you as well 82rude. I appreciate the responses but I just don't understand why you think the 6000 rpm prop is better than the 5200 prop when the lower revs is producing more speed? Why just put a prop on solely on rpm. You wouldn't leave a car in second gear just to get the revs when third will get you lower rpm and more speed. I do understand the idea of speed when loaded but I think that both props will slow down in this situation. I am keeping the 6000 prop to maybe use as a ski prop if needed and it is also a spare for my brothers pontoon which makes it handy for both of us.

It was explained to me by the technical support guy at TP props that the older omc engines have a smaller lower unit that has a better gear ratio and is more tunable. It can also take a smaller prop diameter which opens up a lot of doors as far as prop choices. That being said, 40 hp being 40 hp on both, the older style with the right prop will out perform the etec....on this boat anyway. Maybe it won't look as cool but I'm not going for style points here. I'm just trying to get this thing right without having to make a custom prop. A custom prop would probably solve all my problems but with the kids coming of age, this could get pretty expensive not to mention the extra time spent waiting for it to be remade after purchase. I truely hope I can find a prop for this thing because I would hate to have to take this thing off but I can't see leaving it on and underperforming just because it says etec on it. I can sell it to a pontoon owner and buy an older motor, prop, and still have cash left over. Maybe I can buy a custom cover. See my point?

 

[82rude]

why do you want 5600rpm?With the 13p your at a perfect 6000rpm .I hate to do this to you but have you considered staying at 13p but going to a 4 blade?That should chop, off a 150 or so,though I'm having a hard time figuring out whats wrong with 6000 rpm As ive said time and again as I'm a single minded fool,lol,your set up really plays havoc with propping .I sorta went though the same thing but not to your extent ,60hp 85 rating and just found the prop that got me closest to 6000 and learn to be happy with it as I cant do any better.

 

[Patfromny]

The problem I have with the 6000 prop is that it went 28.3mph. When I switched to the prop that spun at 5200 it went 30.4mph. To me, that sounds like a better prop and there is still room to grow up to 5600. Max rpms are one thing but not the important part of this equation. The max HP is what is important here. The 40 hp is rated at 40 hp @5500. I would like to get to as close to that rpm as possible so I know I am putting 40 hp out of the prop. At 6000 it is making less power. At 5200 it is making less than 40 hp. I know I am being a bit anal but that is who I am. If you have ever seen a dyno graph for an engine you will see that power increases to a certain rpm and then decreases, most times pretty sharply once past that number. Neither one of us is using 60 or 40 hp at the moment. More rpms aren't better. The max HP rating at 5500 should be the goal. For us all. Then you know that you are getting what you paid for.