Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

[Mark42]

This winter my big indoor project is to install hardwood flooring in the Living room and Dining room. Its been about 20 years since I did a hardwood floor install, and I'm sure some things have changed, and I just plain forget about the details.

Plan is to use pre-finished hardwood in Maple or Ash. Going with the traditional 3/4" tongue and groove stock, and its going down over a plywood sub-floor. The existing sub-floor is 23/32" T&G "Sturd-I-floor" ply rated for 24" joist spacing, but the joists are 16" O/C. The floor is glued and screwed to common 2x10 floor joists. Will add more screws just to insure that the sub floor won't squeak.

For prep, I was just going to add screws every foot, and using a 6 foot long piece of 3x3" angle iron, check for high spots and sand them down with a power sander. Maybe fill any low spots with some floor leveling compound. Don't think there will be an real problems in this area.

Here is where I need some guidance and updating on methodology:

1) Covering the sub floor - What is better, tar paper, the red paper, or the thicker composite papers? The basement is finished under these two rooms and the joists are fully insulated using common fiberglass bat and then a 2x4 foot ceiling tile finishes it off. This setup really insulates the first floor from basement in both sound and heat.

2) Nails or staples? Will rent a nail gun, I think the local rental store has electric models. The maple and ash woods are even harder than oak, and I don't want to end up splitting boards left and right. Is this something to worry about?

3) After letting the wood acclimate to the house temp/humidity, how tightly are the strips fit together before nailing? Are they driven tight, or just fit loosely?

4) Which end of the room to start laying the flooring? The flooring will be laid perpendicular to the floor joists. That means in both rooms, there is the choice of starting at a wall with a base board heater the full width (which were installed high in anticipation of the carpet being replaced with wood later), or the other end where there is no heat register, but has a 6' archway leading to tiled floor.

5) Transitions between rooms: Both rooms connect to tiled floors. In the archways, the tiles were run just short of the center of the archway wall. Right now a pre-finished wood strip connects the carpet to the tiles. New transition trim will be needed to match the new floor color. The wood floor with be about 6/16 to 7/16" to higher than the tiles. Will a T strip make that sort of transition well or is there something else that should be used?

Been searching the net for floor install directions, but nothing I found is answering all my questions well.

BTW, these are fairly medium/small size rooms (12x12 and 14x16) and I am doing the install myself so I am willing to spend more to get "select or better" grade wood. Also don't want to use boards less than about 2 feet. I see some specs list lengths from 9" up to 5 feet. No way am I installing 9" boards that are 5" wide!!! That will look too "economy" for my liking. Plan to use a wider plank, like the Bellawood 5" wide maple in natural finish. So short boards will really stand out. The specs say to figure a 5% waste, but if only longer boards are being used, maybe the waste factor should be more like 15 or 20%? Yes, no??

And last, what are suggestions for a good supplier? The Bellawood from Lumber Liquidators looks nice, and I can pick it up from the "local" store (about 45 minutes away) and save shipping charges.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[rockyrude]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Where are you getting 3/4 tongue and groove 5"wide? Is it actually a laminate? 15lb tar paper should do just fine, it's just there to eliminate squeaks. Plan on 3-4 days for your flooring to adjust to your house conditions.The pieces fit snug along their length and the nailer drives 'em tight along their width. Try to install in a way that you don't end up with a sliver at the opposite end. This means you may need to trim your first piece. Perpendicular to the joists is correct. A T strip should do just fine for a transition between floors.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Bellawood makes 4 and 5" x 3/4 solid T&G in the Maple. They also make it in 1/2" x 5 in engineered. But I want to stay away from engineered in a room that can have traditional solid T&G installed.

How big a difference in floors can a T molding cover and still look and feel good?

BTW, I called the local rental office. They have a manual "smack with a mallet" nailer for $27 a day, or an adjustable and uniformly performing pneumatic nailer with compressor for $75 day. Hmmmm. 3 times the price for a full pneumatic vs sore muscles from a manual.... I think the pneumatic is looking good to me.

 

[rockyrude]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

3/8" difference is a little tall but I think you'll be O.K. All of the flooring nailers are "smack with a mallet" its just the air powered ones need less of you to "trip"

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

1. With the 3/4 TG you're using, any of the papers will do. The 5" width stuff is nice, I did my kitchen with it. You're waste factor still shouldn't be over 5% unless you've got a joint free plan in mind.

2. Nails definitely and the pneumatic nailer. Less miss hits and split tongues.

3. THE MOST IMORTANT question of all! Acclimate at least to manufacturers's recommendation. We write in our specs for custom installed millwork and wood flooring that it has to be on site and climate controlled for THREE WEEKS before install. I can hear the sneers already about this one, but the longer the better.

4. I like your idea to start at the baseboard side.

5. Most flooring manufacturers make a transition sill that tapers for situations just like yours.

Good luck, don't rush, you'll be fine.

 

[tswiczko]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I would use the red rosin paper as opposed to tar paper, manual nailer usually get the joints tighter, I would keep the boards as tight as possible and leave a 1/4" gap around the perimeter for expansion and contraction. It's been a while since I have done a hardwood floor as well but I'm sure there is some type of trim to use for the transition. If it were me I would get a raw piece and rip it at and angle on a table saw and sand it then match the stain as best I could. Or if you have the ambition you could use a router and 1/4 round bit but you would still have to match the color.

have fun

 

[CR CRUISER]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I just finished installing 800 sq. ft. of 3/4" hardwood. For the transitions to my laminate floor, I just cut off the tongue, rounded it with the router then rabbited out 3/8" high by 3/4" deep.

Take a good look at the hardwood that you are planning to purchace. There are huge differences in quality between different manufacturers. A lot of the offshore produced floors that I looked at didn't fit well together. The beech that I wound up using was made in Quebec and was far superior quality for only $.30/sq.ft. more.

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I did 4 rooms. I really liked the pneumatic nailer, but the manual with the mallet works as well.

Instead of tar paper, look into the 1/8" foam pad. It gives the floor a softer feel under foot. Do some internet searches on it and get more info. Seems to get better approval from installers than paper.

Bellawood is good. I used Bruce Hardwood flooring. The boards I used were 4' long by 3" wide. Looks better in a smaller room than large boards. Think of putting 18" tiles in a closet. Make sure you stagger the joints or it will look weird.

When transitioning to other flooring, you can either rip down the last board and finish an edge or use a 'T' threshold. They are premade in the same finish for room changes.

When you get to the baseboards, leave a 1/8"-1/4" unless you can go under the baseboard. If you have a small gap, get the prefinished quarter-round trim to cover. If you want pics of what I've mentioned, PM me and I'll send some to you.

Too bad you're not closer. I bought the air nailer and I would let you borrow it for the job!!

 

[Mark42]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Thanks for all the tips and advice. Going to go look at the flooring in the store next week and will decide then which of the 3 different styles we picked out to use.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I've been around to a few stores. Was surprised that the samples of Bellawood from Lumber Liquidators is as good as other brand names. Bellawood is LL's premium product, so it should be good. And the price for the Bellawood Birch (Select grade) in a 2 1/4" strip is better than Home Depot or Lowes for domestic woods (other than oak), and had the aluminum oxide coating where the others are urethane. The birch is just a tad softer than red oak according to some comparison charts, but it should be hard enough for the rooms its going in.

I like the suggestions about making my own transition pieces. Thats not a problem, but I will need to find some stain to match fairly close. And for an 8' wide entrance from front foyer to dining room where tile will meet the new birch, I'll probably glue up a few strips to make a long enough piece.

I did read that customer service is not so good with Bellawood, so I read their warranty and am aware of what they cover and how and when to file if there is a problem.

Last weekend we removed the carpet, padding and tack strips from the dining room. The sub floor seems to be fine. Did buy a box of screws to run into the joists where I thought they need some more. This weekend the living room will be prepped. Hopefully there will be enough space to store all 28 boxes of flooring out of the way while it acclimates to the house temp/humidity.

Well, that's where I'm at. If you think Bellawood is a poor choice or know of some better supplier, please let me know!

This is a link to the Birch: http://www.lumberliquidators.com/ca...ategoryId=627&sectionId=468&subCategoryId=622

 

[jollymon]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Most of mu house is done in LL's Bellawood. I used Australlian Cypress Prefinished.

Use the pneumatic nailer it will save your shoulder. The Bellawood was fine to work with. make sure you check each piece out of 23 boxes you will find some bad pieces. Not a problem, I used the in closets or where i needed to trim an edge off. You want the pieces tight to each other and end to end.

Good Luck.

 

[rickryder]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Pm sent

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

The pneumatic, at 75 per day... You can buy an pneumatic for less than 300 now. I've got a manual. love it. wouldn't want the pneumatic. You'll get tighter joints with the manual. I put in Mandalay walnut (Indonesian) in my livingroom, diningroom, and entry area in 2007. I've got 900 square feet of acacia (Asian walnut) acclimating now, for my three bedrooms. They've been acclimating in the opened boxes for two weeks now, and will sit there until the end of the month. If you take all of the wood out of the boxes, and lay it out in a single layer over the floor of each room, then it will only take 3-5 days to acclimate. The harder the wood, the longer the acclimation period. The moistiure in the wood must be within 2% of the moisture in the air and subfloors. I don't have the space to lay the wood out in each room, so the acclimation period is much longer.

The prep work you described for your subfloors is correct and sounds thorough. I use 15lb asphalt felt paper (roofing tar paper). The underlayment is not just to stop squeaking. That's not even the most important reason for it. It's a moisture barrier. It protects your hardwood from below, and it protects your subfloors from spills and floods. It's even more important for that reason since we're talking about prefinished as opposed to unfinished. When you finish the flooring yourself, there's your top level moisture barrier; you seal all the wood together.

Do not use staples. They're cheaper, but cannot hold as well. Use 2" flooring nails. With a manual nailer, you won't split Patagonian Rosewood, which is one of the hardest woods at a janka hardness of 3892. That's what I was originally going to use in the bedrooms.

Start at the end of the room which is the most viewed. Pop a chalk line 1/4" - 1/2" from the wall to allow for expansion. You can use a 16 gauge finishing nailer to secure the first row. Counter-sink the heads about 1/16" and save a small bag of sawdust from your cuts to make a custom putty using wood glue mixed with the sawdust. Use this to fill the countersink holes and smooth down with a small plastic putty knife while still wet, and you won't have to sand or buff. Wait 24 to 48 hours before you clean any missed smudges. Don't drive the first two rows you drive with the flooring nailer too tightly, or you'll move the first row you set with the finishing nailer. After the first couple rows, nail powerfully to set the planks tightly. Follow the manufacturers recomendations for nail spacing. Different woods require different spacing. More is not a good thing. The recomendations were figured to allow for the most stability with the least amount of warping. Be very carefull about the flooring you buy from the place you mentioned. I've been told by more than one contractor that the ends are not always square to acceptable tolerances and end up adding to waste or must be altered. If you're not an absolute perfectionist, then that's OK. Just remember, this is your home. Get the best quality flooring you can afford.

T-strips for the transitions will be fine. You'll just have to use a router, shaper, or moulding planer to compensate for the difference in flooring heights. If you go to a good lumber supplier, you can choose some beautiful peices of 1X which is 3/4" thick, and make your own.

Good luck... And you do know what the price for all the guidance from all of us is , don't you?... Pictures!!!

 

[dingbat]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Some food for thought when deciding on the type of wood flooring you want to install. A penny saved may be a penny foolishly in the long run.

We thought about putting prefinished in this house 21 years ago. Fortunately, we got talked out of it by the builder and went with the traditional unfinished, random length red oak.

Fast forward 21 years and the floors are still in great shape. The wood has darkened overtime and they look better than ever if anything. The satin finish they put on these floors has really stood the test of time. We just put the house on the market and just about everyone that walks in comments on the beauty of the "real wood? floors.

My BIL on the other hand chose to install prefinished when he built his home a year later. His prefinished has not held up nearly as well over time. Water damage is the primary culprit but the finish is pretty bad despite my SIL strict adherence to a no shoes policy on the wood floors.

The house we?re moving into has random length, 8-12? wide plank chestnut floors on a good part of the ground floor. The flooring was the original floor of the loft in a 17th century barn that is on the property. The flooring was installed then sanded and finished in place when the house was built 35 years ago. They where refinished for the first time two years ago. Talk about pretty.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Thanks for suggestions. Still haven't ordered the floor yet, but we decided on another floor we like better than the Bellawood. Armstrong has one called Eddington Strip. Its in their "Best" line of flooring. Available in Ash in a Butterscotch color, we like it better than the Bellawood. It also has a UV cured Urethane finish with Aluminum Oxide to extend wear. Another good aspect of choosing a nationally marketed brand (like Bruce) over a proprietary line (like Bellawood) is that prices can be compared and worked against retailers to get the lowest price. Started out at $5.24 from an online discount store, and ended up at $4.29 sq/ft by emailing competitors written estimates to competing retailers. Delivery prices came down too. And I feel better about buying an Armstrong product because I have used their products before and am very satisfied with quality and performance. The floor I'm looking at is CB2716. You can look it up on the Armstrong website if your interested.

BTW, I found out that the Armstrong/Bruce line of flooring available at the home stores like Lowes is NOT the same as what is offered by Armstrong/Bruce through regular flooring retailers. The Armstrong website lists retailers of their products, and they specifically listed Lowes (and I think Home Depot too) as carrying a line of flooring that is "not in their normal product line" and is not documented on their website. Also note that the Lowes version of Bruce only carries a 15 year warranty, which is the same as the bottom line wood floors offered by Bruce through flooring retailers. So even though the price is the same as what I am paying for their premium product through an online discounter, it is probably only as good as their base product. A big clue is the part number Lowes has can not be found on the Bruce website, but the part number I am buying is carried by all the online retailers I got estimates from. That guarantees that I am getting price quotes on the identical product, and not some "special" line made for a chain store.

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I put a Bruce floor in my mother's house 30 years ago. Still looks perfect. Good stuff. Worth the money.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

Mark,

I'd suggested a 16ga finishing nailer for thhe "starter" rows. You can also drill pilot holes using a countersinking bit, close enough the edge to be covered completely by the base moulding, and use 2" screws. Either tapered head, galvanized or stainless steel so they won't rust. Outdoor decking screws work well. This will hold the 1st rows more solidly and allow Less migration toward the wall due to nailing the following rows. Good luck. I sent you a PM.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I read quite a few articles on how to do hardwood flooring. I was wondering how to install the last few rows where the nail gun wouldn't fit between the rows and the wall. This was not covered well by most articles online, but the few that did cover it in detail said to pre-drill and nail down the flooring through the tongue (same as the nailer would) and the last row was nailed straight down through the top, counter sunk, then filled with a wood filler. This sounded pretty conventional, but time consuming as pre-drilling and free-hand nailing requires that I take my time to avoid making mistakes and damaging the finished surface. One particular article said to not nail the last 3 rows at all! Just lay them down, drive tight with mallet, and only top nail the last row. So the last 3 or so rows are just floating, being held in place by the very last row. Is this an acceptable method?

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

I read quite a few articles on how to do hardwood flooring. I was wondering how to install the last few rows where the nail gun wouldn't fit between the rows and the wall. This was not covered well by most articles online, but the few that did cover it in detail said to pre-drill and nail down the flooring through the tongue (same as the nailer would) and the last row was nailed straight down through the top, counter sunk, then filled with a wood filler. This sounded pretty conventional, but time consuming as pre-drilling and free-hand nailing requires that I take my time to avoid making mistakes and damaging the finished surface. One particular article said to not nail the last 3 rows at all! Just lay them down, drive tight with mallet, and only top nail the last row. So the last 3 or so rows are just floating, being held in place by the very last row. Is this an acceptable method?

I use a finishing nailer with 2" 16ga nails. Countersink 1/16th" and fill with custom putty made from sawdust collected from your cuts. If your using natural finish planks, just mix well with wood glue. If you're using stained planks; you'll need to match the stain to make your putty. It's not difficult. The results are well worth the little extra time and effort. Take your time and enjoy the fruits of your effort.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Need suggestions/help with hardwood flooring project.

On the end plank, you can finish the same way you began. If you like the idea of the pilot holes with a tapered countersink bit, and countersinking tapered screws, just make sure they're close enough to the edge to be covered by the base moulding. If you accidentally leave a portion of the screw sticking out beyond the base moulding, no problem... Simply countersink the screw another 1/8" to 3/16" and fill with putty. You need to go deeper with the screws than the 16ga finishing nails because of the width of the hole your filling. 1/16" will eventually pop out of a hole which is the width of a tapered screw head.