neglected mercruiser 2.5 - water in oil, dirty gas etc

thumpar

Admiral
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
6,138
On my last boat I just wired up the trim up button to work the tilt. It would porpoise at almost no trim up so I never risked over trimming it.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
On my last boat I just wired up the trim up button to work the tilt. It would porpoise at almost no trim up so I never risked over trimming it.

I assume you mean you bypassed the trim limit switch....

Chris..
 

thumpar

Admiral
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
6,138
I assume you mean you bypassed the trim limit switch....

Chris..

Kind of. I did it at the controls instead of at the limit connectors because it was super easy with the way it was setup on that boat.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Kind of. I did it at the controls instead of at the limit connectors because it was super easy with the way it was setup on that boat.

Yep. When you know and understand the wiring, it's quite simple. But at the moment we're helping this guy of whom we have no idea of his electrical prowess.
 

vroom ZOOM

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
427
thanks achris and thumpar I get it now, i have the plastic resorvoir oildyne pump 1987. I got it working now and the system seems a bit dumb design wise to me, but thats the merc designers business I guess. I boat around i areas where rocks underwater are a problem. realistically, how fast past the limit can I go when going slow to pass underwater rocks without screwing up the u joint but high enough to avoid a rock?
 
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vroom ZOOM

Chief Petty Officer
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Aug 15, 2017
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427
ok posted some pics in my idea book of the boat project will be more as the work progresses!
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
thanks achris and thumpar I get it now, i have the plastic resorvoir oildyne pump 1987. I got it working now and the system seems a bit dumb design wise to me, but thats the merc designers business I guess. I boat around i areas where rocks underwater are a problem. realistically, how fast past the limit can I go when going slow to pass underwater rocks without screwing up the u joint but high enough to avoid a rock?

It's actually an excellent design... Works perfectly in 95% of situations. You may be in the 5%... ;) (like I am most of the time :D)

How high? At a particular holiday spot I frequent, I have to cross the sand bar out to the ocean (for those curious, "Walpole, WA".) and as I do, the bottom of the boat is bouncing on the sand. With the engine at idle, my drive is almost fully up... The important part, AT IDLE..... As soon as the water is deep enough.... I drop the drive back down to the normal running position and head south, quickly :D

If you're all thinking that puts excess stress on the uni joints, think again. The maximum UP angle is less than the maximum turn angle to port or starboard, and I see a lot of people quite happy to do high speed turns. The actual reason it's an issue is because the drive is no longer inside the gimbal ring supports. THAT is the reason for the limit switch.... Nothing to do with uni joints.

1987... 2 solenoid... Here's your diagram....

trimwiringcoloured.png

also, any ideas on the half fuel tank fuel starvation problem?

All I can think of is a crack in the pickup tube in the tank... or, the fuel pump is not pulling hard enough... Try connecting a length of clear fuel rated hose from the fuel filter to the inlet of the fuel pump and look for bubbles.

Chris..........
 
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vroom ZOOM

Chief Petty Officer
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Aug 15, 2017
Messages
427
thanks a lot. I just thought the design was dumb because there are no limit switches for full down and up, and no different motor speeds for trim and tilt
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
thanks a lot. I just thought the design was dumb because there are no limit switches for full down and up, and no different motor speeds for trim and tilt

Full down limit is achieved by getting to the end of travel. Because the pressure is lower on the DOWN, the pump can just bypass, you'll hear the difference in the pump sound.

Same with full UP, You'll hear the pump load up...

As for the difference in motor speed, nope, and I think you might be referring to some outboards that have a slow trim and a fast tilt... That's done in the hydraulics, the motor and pump speed doesn't change. It's done with an additional 2 short rams in the trim range. The pump has to fill 3 rams with the same volume, so the movement is a third the speed. Once the 2 small rams reach end of travel, the single centre ram does all the work, taking all the pump output, so the engine 'tilts' at 3 times the speed...
 

nola mike

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
5,481
Looks like Boatinfo is down. Has happened before. They may come back, they may not...

Ok, trim systems 101...

First up, need to know which system you have. There's been a lot over the years...
How many solenoids (1 or 2)?
Is the pump motor round or square?
Is the reservoir metal or plastic?
Where is your shift plate (engine mounted or up against the inside of the transom)?
Do you have a reverse lock valve?
Trim control panel or buttons? (panel mounted or control box handle mounted)





So, some of the basics.
The trim pump motor is bi-directional. To pump UP, the motor spins one way, to pump DOWN, the motor spins the other way. 3 wires (about 6mm) run into the motor, a blue (for UP), and green (for DOWN) and the black ground. Easy way to remember, blue sky above you (UP), green grass below you (DOWN)...

UP pressure is higher than DOWN pressure, usually about double. And be warned, these are high pressures we are playing with. Treat them with respect! The UP side of the ram piston is full face, so you get maximum force. The DOWN side has the piston rod on it, so it has less force for a give pressure, and it has less pressure... One common problem we see on trim systems is the drive won't go down, even with oil in the pump and the pump running. Most of the time this is a corroded ram end cap. The corrosion puts a clamping force on the piston rod and the force generated by the pump isn't enough to overcome it. Someone standing on the drive often helps it go down, but the end caps will eventually 'clamp' beyond that... But it goes UP ok, because the force is around 3 times higher....

On to the electrical side.

'Trim' and 'tilt' are the same thing as far as the hydraulic and electrical systems are concerned. They are more a definition of the range of travel. 'Trim' is usually the lower half of the range, and 'tilt' is the upper, or as determined by the trim limit switch adjustment... (more on this later)

The DOWN side is easy. If single solenoid, power goes directly from the trim switch panel/button to the pump. The wires will be fairly heavy, as they are carrying full motor current. If twin solenoids, then the current from the switch/button picks the solenoid. and that switches the power to the motor... (I'll include a circuit diagram for you once I know which system you have)...

UP side is a bit more complex, as it involves a trim limit switch (or a jumper wire if the limit switch has failed and the owner hates having to use the 'TRAILER' button all the time. :mad: :D)

UP is always powered through a solenoid. Power for the UP goes first to the limit switch (early model to about 1974 had the limit switch mounted below the gimbal ring upper swivel pin. Later have the hinge pin mounted 'pucks'). If the limit switch is closed (drive is in or near the DOWN position), the current then picked the UP solenoid. If the limit switch was open, or opens while the drive was going UP, as it reached the limit of 'trim', the solenoid would drop out and the motor stop. If you wish to raise the drive higher than the trim limit, the trailer button (or on the 3 button panel, the centre and top buttons pressed together) would bypass the limit switch and allow the pump to raise the drive to the top of travel...

Limit switches are know to fail, quite regularly, and as they are a PITA to replace, a lot of people just make up a short (1") jumper, with a male bullet connector on each end, and bypass the limit switch where its wires connect to the trim pump harness. Once you do that, there is no 'trim limit', the whole range, as far as the trim panel/buttons are concerned are the trim range (because the limit switch will never open)...

The trim gauge and its sender are completely separate to the trim pump harness and controls. The pump doesn't get any feedback from the gauge, at all. So the gauge and the pump are not reliant on each other to work. Each will work without the other working.

Hope this helps.....

Chris.........

This is a nice explanation, would do well in the stickies...
 

vroom ZOOM

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
427
ok one more thing I realized... when I hit the throttle, the engine is very reluctant to accelerate, sometimes it even pops and dies. I usually have to baby it to get to proper rpm before I can really hit it. a pain when water skiing...
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Sounds like a lean pop... when was the carb last serviced?
 

vroom ZOOM

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
427
whats with boatinfo? it says that the account is suspended. as far as I know it means the hosting provider took it down again?
 
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