New disc brake system not working

[ninhalo5]

Hi, I just swapped out my old drum brakes for disc. I bought a set of those tie down full brake kits, hoses, and a new actuator a Areo-6000

We started bleeding the brakes and everything was fine then the calipers wouldn't release. I thought that maybe they sold me the wrong actuator, so I tore it apart to remove the check valve but there wasn't one there, on the back side was nothing but the nipple and on the other side was the plunger with a bunch of holes in it a rubber cap and a spring.

Well after removing the actuator the calipers were still locked, no fluid came out of the lines, so I had to open the bleeder and use a screwdriver to spread the pads to release the brakes. I even pulled the plug on one of the T fittings and there was no fluid coming out. I'm totally perplexed

Anyone know what in the world is going on with my brake system?

Oh, I did not install a reverse solenoid, I figured its not that big of a deal to flip a lever while unhooking the boat.

Thanks

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Hi, I just swapped out my old drum brakes for disc. I bought a set of those tie down full brake kits, hoses, and a new actuator a Areo-6000

We started bleeding the brakes and everything was fine then the calipers wouldn't release. I thought that maybe they sold me the wrong actuator, so I tore it apart to remove the check valve but there wasn't one there, on the back side was nothing but the nipple and on the other side was the plunger with a bunch of holes in it a rubber cap and a spring.

Well after removing the actuator the calipers were still locked, no fluid came out of the lines, so I had to open the bleeder and use a screwdriver to spread the pads to release the brakes. I even pulled the plug on one of the T fittings and there was no fluid coming out. I'm totally perplexed

Anyone know what in the world is going on with my brake system?

Oh, I did not install a reverse solenoid, I figured its not that big of a deal to flip a lever while unhooking the boat.

Thanks

Not quite sure what you are explaining. When you release the brake fluid pressure and crack a bleeder, does the fluid squirt out or just dribble from the bleeder? After you crack the bleeder does the rotor turn, but with a bunch of drag on it? Are you trying to turn the rotor with the wheel / tire bolted on or just trying to turn the rotor by hand (which may be a bit tough, especially when new)?

When the brake fluid pressure to caliper is released, the brake pads will not create any seperation between the pads an rotors and will drag, especially on a new install. Released, the rotors should turn by hand, but you will feel a bunch of drag and hear them rubbing on the pads, since nothing will push the piston back into the calipers, except the runout of the rotor. As the rotors age, they usually get a bit of runout on them (not 100% perfect dimensions), pushing the pistons back into the calipers a bit and allowing the rotors to spin a little more freely. The calipers also need to "fload" on the pins freely, so they can move with the rotor.

Yours being brand new, everything will be a bit stiff.

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Did you replace the rubber hoses?
They hove been known to collapse on the inside and hold pressure so the brakes drag or lock completely. This may be especially true if the old system was not used in a while.

Also you can try reverse bleeding the system. A local parts store can rent you the tools to push the fluid from calipers to the master cylinder, or you can use a vacuum pump on the bleeder to suck the fluid into the system.
Both of these ways are better for bleeding than just pumping the actuator.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Just reading through your post, I am wondering how your got the calipers to extend and lock while bleeding the brakes? or did you pump the master cylinder with the bleeders closed for a little bit.

My only thought, based on what you described is that somehow you got the pistons in the calipers over extended, so they stayed that way. I would re-check that the calipers and pads are installed correctly. Maybe post us a few pictures as well.

It seems like you checked the obvious things, like actuator type, etc. So, it is a bit of a mystery at this point.

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

When I cracked open the bleeder, nothing at all happened, 0 dribble, rotors still locked up, until I pryed the brake away from the rotor with the bleeder opened, only then did fluid come out and the brakes released enough for me to push the trailer back to its parking spot.

The brakes were locked up tight, my friend that was helping me is very strong and the brakes got so tight while bleeding that he couldn't even pump the cylinder any more, the trailer was even starting to drag along the ground (not roll but actually drag). He even tried to turn the rotor and couldn't. We never did get a chance to really bleed the other side, being the cylinder was so tight it would no longer pump.

It seems to me that the pressure in the lines is not releasing for some reason. I would have thought the fluid would have run out of the lines once disconnected, but it didn't.

I can't seem to find a picture of the master cylinder's parts anywhere online so I'm going to take a couple and upload here, just to make sure the plunger at least looks correct for these disc brakes. There was no check valve, but I read somewhere that there should be a 1/16" hole drilled into the piston for the disc brakes to work. My piston has probably 20 tiny holes going around the edge of it instead of 1 larger hole. It's kind of strange to me how that would work anyow being the piston is separated from the spring with a rubber cap.

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Did you replace the rubber hoses?
They hove been known to collapse on the inside and hold pressure so the brakes drag or lock completely. This may be especially true if the old system was not used in a while.

Also you can try reverse bleeding the system. A local parts store can rent you the tools to push the fluid from calipers to the master cylinder, or you can use a vacuum pump on the bleeder to suck the fluid into the system.
Both of these ways are better for bleeding than just pumping the actuator.

Yes, the entire system is brand new. I yanked the metal lines and put on hoses.

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Just reading through your post, I am wondering how your got the calipers to extend and lock while bleeding the brakes? or did you pump the master cylinder with the bleeders closed for a little bit.

My only thought, based on what you described is that somehow you got the pistons in the calipers over extended, so they stayed that way. I would re-check that the calipers and pads are installed correctly. Maybe post us a few pictures as well.

It seems like you checked the obvious things, like actuator type, etc. So, it is a bit of a mystery at this point.

Yes, I pumped the master with the bleeders closed just as I would with a car. Had my friend pump them and hold while I opened the bleeder to release the air, once the fluid finally stopped spitting from the air being released was when the brakes started to lock up

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

here is the entire insides of the master cylinder, looks like there are only 6 holes in the plunger, not 20 like I thought earlier

 

[Thalasso]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Is this the model of your actuator for disc brakes? I know it sounds like a stupid question but stranger things have been sold to people by mistake.4500600=Drum 4606500=Disc. You would think after disconnecting the lines the brakes would release. Go back and recheck your installation of the calipers.An incorrect lever or chain position may cause the trailer brakes to drag and overheat.Make sure the pins on the calipers are not bent

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Is this the model of your actuator for disc brakes? I know it sounds like a stupid question but stranger things have been sold to people by mistake.4500600=Drum 4606500=Disc. You would think after disconnecting the lines the brakes would release. Go back and recheck your installation of the calipers.An incorrect lever or chain position may cause the trailer brakes to drag and overheat.Make sure the pins on the calipers are not bent

As far as I know it's the correct actuator. I told the people I ordered it from to make sure that it is for disc brakes 3 times. And on the box it was delivered in stated disc, they assured me it would be the disc actuator.

The pins for the caliper are perfectly straight. The entire set up is virtually fool proof. What i did was Mount the mounting bracket, install rotors which already has the bearings installed, then slide the pins through the caliper into the mounting bracket and tighten down. Then I routed all the hoses and connected the T's, then connected the hoses to the calipers and lastly to the the actuator. We filled the master cylinder and started pumping and bleeding out of the top most bleeder until the air stopped, the only thing I did not do was pre-bleed the master cylinder, which the instructions for this particular actuator did no say to do, so I didn't.

After going through all that I thought maybe the emergency brake was set, so I gave the wire a pull then reset it just to be sure. After that I decided to tear it all apart.

So this where I'm at, everything is now hooked up except for the actuator which I have have in 20 pieces. Gotta go get a new C clip for the plunger since the one that was one it shot 2 states over when I was putting it back together lol :laugh:

 

[BrianCinAz]

Re: New disc brake system not working

If the caliper is not releasing when you open the bleeder screw, then you obviously have a stuck piston or caliper. Think about it. If the bleeder is open, rubber seals on the piston will retract the piston a small distance. Something (misalignment, bad seal, stuck pad (piston glued to the pad?) forgot to lube the sliders?) is preventing the piston and caliper from moving that small distance.

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

If the caliper is not releasing when you open the bleeder screw, then you obviously have a stuck piston or caliper. Think about it. If the bleeder is open, rubber seals on the piston will retract the piston a small distance. Something (misalignment, bad seal, stuck pad (piston glued to the pad?) forgot to lube the sliders?) is preventing the piston and caliper from moving that small distance.

Forgot to lube the sliders... Check

Instructions didn't say anything about it so I didn't. I generally try to follow instructions as close as possible. Most cars slider pins are incased in rubber so greasing did not even occur to me. The pins were not a tight fit, though it maybe possible that without grease the caliper might have slipped to an angle and was wedged.

I figured there was nothing wrong with the calipers piston, it seemed to move fairly smoothly, when I spread the pad from the rotor it did not take much to do so unlike a cars caliper which requires a good bit of force.

Can anyone tell if my master cylinder's piston looks to be correct before I put my actuator all back together? If I need to drill another hole in it I'd like to do so first.

Thanks

 

[FastFission]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Installation guide with pictures here: http://www.titandist.com/pdfs/aero6000-actuator.pdf I'm not an expert on disc trailer brakes, but is there a chance that the breakaway cable got pulled?

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Installation guide with pictures here: http://www.titandist.com/pdfs/aero6000-actuator.pdf I'm not an expert on disc trailer brakes, but is there a chance that the breakaway cable got pulled?

Thanks for the link, I did get that with my actuator. Good thing too, it helps figuring out how to release the emergency brake

 

[Al Kungel]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Basic question for each caliper, when you open the bleeder valve and you pump the actuator does fluid come out? If the answer is yes, and you have new hoses, then the problem is problem in the actuator. If the problem is only at one caliper, then you have a problem with that specific hose?

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Basic question for each caliper, when you open the bleeder valve and you pump the actuator does fluid come out? If the answer is yes, and you have new hoses, then the problem is problem in the actuator. If the problem is only at one caliper, then you have a problem with that specific hose?

Yes, when we pump or hold the brake I'm getting fluid out of the bleeders, like I should.

I just had a thought, I was investigating the brass nipple that comes out of the actuator which the hose screws into and noticed that the hole in it is super tiny, so small in fact I may be able to get a guitars E string in it but not a sewing needle, however on the other hand I glanced at the hoses and the holes on the connectors are about the size of a cross stitching needle, maybe 1/32" diameter.

With the actuators hole so small I would believe the fluid would have some major issues with back flow and releasing pressure.

If that is indeed the case, my question is why hasn't the fluid run back out of the hose with the line disconnected? Does the master cylinder act as a syringe of sorts when you release the brakes it suctions the fluid back in?

I might just go buy some metal brake line, the flow will be much better.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: New disc brake system not working

sounds like a bad hose. even new hoses etc need to be blown out with compressed air to make sure they do not have anything left in them before being installed. Another thing to check that i have seen is the bolts that hold the calapier on are to long and hit the back of the pads.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Note: The disc / drum brake MC's are different.... The Drum MC's will hold a small amount of pressure on the lines when released, which is enough to keep Discs engaged. Cracking the line right after the MC will tell you if it's the MC causing the problem, holding the brakes on or if the problem is downstream after the MC.

This is a strange one, since my single axle drum to dual axle Kodiac disc conversion went smooth as silk w/ zero problems. Unlike your conversion though, I went with all hard S/S lines w/ Jegs S/S flex lines and AN3 fittings at calipers, axles and MC.

 

[ninhalo5]

Re: New disc brake system not working

Well, I'm back again. I think the main problem had to do with the brass fitting on the rear of the MC the hole was way too small to allow the pressure to release.

I do have a new question on routing the hoses. Searching around on the net I found if your hose is too long then just wrap it in a couple coils and tie wire it to the frame. Ok no problem. What I want to know is, do you have to use both T fittings? My front hose is long enough to reach the axle with no problem. On the image I included; couldn't I just hook the 2 wheel lines into T #1 instead of capping it on one side and running another line to T #2, then out to the wheels?

It seems to be rather pointless to use both T's unless your trying to avoid bending the hose in a sharp 90 deg angle or something.

Thanks

 

[bruceb58]

Re: New disc brake system not working

It seems to be rather pointless to use both T's unless your trying to avoid bending the hose in a sharp 90 deg angle or something.

You are correct. The reason that T is there is for a second axle. If you don't have a second axle that you are going to hook up, you don't need it if your flex line from the actuator can reach the axle. Typically, the line from the actuator is a hard line and that is why you would need the T or a junction there to transition from rigid to flex.