New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

[Greg Mrozinski]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I just bought a new low permeation 12 gal above deck tank the other day. It was easily $20 more than the last one I bought just a year and a half ago. It's definitley thicker material used to make it. Fill cap was heavier as well.

Yup I would say Moeller is fully on board with the price increase.

 

[robert graham]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Well, I'm all for the thicker tanks, My tank is the old 1999, 12 gallon red polyethylene unit and I worry sometimes if the sunlight/UV could deteriorate the upper surfaces and cause then to crack or leak. I'd hate to lose several gallons of gas in the back of the boat 20 or 30 miles down the river! When the new thick ones hit the market I'm gonna buy one!...probably be $100 by then! Maybe we should buy some Moeller Tank stock!

 

[Greg Mrozinski]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Mine listed for $119.00!!! Fortunately I didn't have to pay that much but none the less...

 

[AKBASSKING]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

This whole thing reminds me of the propane bottle requirements for the safety shutoff to prevent a bottle from exploding a number of years back. (Not an EPA requirement) Yet there was no evidence that any bottles ever blew up.

There was only one manufacture of the float so they made out big time. I know SC opted out of the requirement, not sure about other states.

 

[I Fish]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Oh boy. I could go on and on and on. This EPA thing has got to stop! This is a little off topic, but points to the ridiculousness. Remember a few years ago, when all of the gas stations had to switch to the vapor recovery fuel dispensers? That's why we have huge looking fuel hoses and nozzles now. All those things do is suck the fumes from you filling up, and put them back in the tank, where they go right on out into the atmosphere via the tank vent on top of the canopy, or the vent lines sticking up beside the in ground tanks. This is why you smell gas when you drive by a gas station, but don't necessarily smell it while you are at the gas station. Think of how much time, energy, and on going maintenance expense that has cost, but to what real benefit? I view this new regulation in the exact same light. You think this is bad, just wait until they start enforcing their firewood (or rubbish) "rules". Say good bye to your campfires, fireplaces, and wood burning stoves. The way we get the wood for them is illegal right now, the EPA just hasn't started enforcement yet!

As much damage as the EPA has done us, in our best interest of course, if we don't stop them, they will completley destroy us. They have no oversight, make their own rules, regulations, and fines. We do not elect the officials, and have no real say in anything they force upon us, but, we have to pay for it. When was the last time you heard of an EPA regulation being overturned? Sorry for the rant. The EPA just makes my blood pressure explode.

 

[Treager]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I posted a warning back in November:
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=450186

The regs originated out of California (CARB - California Air Resources Board). Because of the problems with smog, etc, they assign a dollar value to emissions to justify passing these regulations. EPA has harmonized with the CARB limits for permeation.

Simply adding to the thickness of the tanks won't pass permeation requirements. Trust me, the manufacturers would rather not do this. They either have to move to a multilayer tank or incorporate an additive to the plastic during the manufacturing process. Either way, it reduces the cycle time and tightens the window for a tank that can meet quality and permeation requirements.

Expect the tanks to increase in cost by 30%, fuel hose by 10-20%, primer bulbs to double or triple in cost, fuel caps to increse by 20-50% (Guesstimates on my part)

 

[KingHardcor]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I just wish I could buy a new pressure tank.

 

[infideltarget]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

umm, the government doesn't sell fuel tanks! Its the other way around, enforcing regulations like this cost the government money.

The Gov't HAS no money...other than OUR taxes. So it costs US money. The EPA is definitely a joke. All this talk about micrograms of hydrocarbons, carbon footprints, carbon credits, etc...BAH! They are worried about fume permeation, but truth be told, more pollution is produced by smoking cigarettes than this could EVER produce! The EPA needs to come to Iraq, where they burn EVERYTHING. Trash, human waste, tires, corpses, you name it. The Iraqi Army burns old tires as a heat source. I truly do not understand these silly requirements as anything more than a way to get their hands in our pockets. Like what was said before, I have left gas in cans uncovered until it was almost settled out before, with no noticeable loss. I realize there are fumes, and where there is a smell, there is particulate (as this is how the human nose works...remember that next time someone farts near you and you smell it), but even in large scale it is so miniscule as to be ridiculous to try to measure it. I have left plastic gas cans out in the sun for years, with only a little fading as evidence of it. There was no noticeable degradation to performance, in its ability to transport or contain fuel. If they were concerned about punctures, or were concerned about more than just getting more money for whatever, it seems they would just mandate stainless steel or aluminum tanks, and vapor arrestors, and get it over with. And you can still buy steel jerry cans...I have two. Look at 4wd suppliers and camping websites...you will find them. Nothing political here...just some angry opinion, and fact.

EDIT: I hate the C.A.R.B. too! They are trying to kill performance engines, and classic cars! but that's another rant for another thread.

 

[tschmidty]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I am going to agree that the requirements sound overdone, but this quote?

The EPA needs to come to Iraq, where they burn EVERYTHING. Trash, human waste, tires, corpses, you name it. The Iraqi Army burns old tires as a heat source.

Not really sure we want to start emulating Iraq for how we treat our environment.

Here in NC, you already can't eat the fish you catch out of Lake Norman. Makes me a little nervous even swimming in it. I would think as boaters we would have appreciation for the effects of a clean environment. Nothing like looking at frothy, trash covered water in a cove to say 'Ah this is a nice day out, let's toss a line in and enjoy the day...".

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Anyone remember 5 MPH bumper's ??? When the first cat's were used in cars and trucks?????? When the seatbelt became a shoulder belt???? All part of progress

Look in the mirror and repeat these words...... "we have no choice on this"

My point is pick your battles. We are not going to defeat the EPA Regulations.

 

[jonnymarquis]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I am going to agree that the requirements sound overdone, but this quote?



Not really sure we want to start emulating Iraq for how we treat our environment.

Here in NC, you already can't eat the fish you catch out of Lake Norman. Makes me a little nervous even swimming in it. I would think as boaters we would have appreciation for the effects of a clean environment. Nothing like looking at frothy, trash covered water in a cove to say 'Ah this is a nice day out, let's toss a line in and enjoy the day...".

I'm a little up stream from ya (hickory, rhodhiss) and you should see our lakes if you think of norman that way "dirty", i think that its just because of the nuclear station that they say don't eat the fish. when you pull in a three eyed fish i wouldn't eat it

 

[Cannondale]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Remember a few years ago, when all of the gas stations had to switch to the vapor recovery fuel dispensers?

Not all gas station by any stretch of the imagination, just in select markets.....those that have/had bad air quality to begin with. In my area, those vapor recovery fill hoses do not exist, nor do they exist within hours of driving from my house.

So, not all gas stations were required to change....just an FYI.

 

[infideltarget]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I am going to agree that the requirements sound overdone, but this quote?



Not really sure we want to start emulating Iraq for how we treat our environment.

Here in NC, you already can't eat the fish you catch out of Lake Norman. Makes me a little nervous even swimming in it. I would think as boaters we would have appreciation for the effects of a clean environment. Nothing like looking at frothy, trash covered water in a cove to say 'Ah this is a nice day out, let's toss a line in and enjoy the day...".

Whoa there sparky...

NOT saying we should use this hell-hole as a model!!! And I am glad we have some restrictions, I am all for clean air and water. What I was trying to illustrate was that are MUCH larger concerns that need to be addressed before we start regulating very minor issues such as the minute possibility that a microscopic amount of fuel vapor MIGHT leach through a plastic fuel tank. Much more progress would be made if the major issues were addressed world wide before they start worrying about "uncontrolled" fuel vapor in a small boat. Case in point...the EPA did an inspection of our maintenance wash down facility, and decided that by washing vehicle engines we were contaminating the soil and water by POSSIBLY draining 1-2 gallons per year of engine oil onto the ground from a wash down. Yet, 100ft away, the locals regularly change their semi-truck oil, and dump 20-30 gallons at a time on the ground...several times a day. Which is the bigger problem? But they forced us to purchase a half million dollar oil / water separator, but refuse to add a $1000 drain pit for them....we even offered to pay for it. They dont care about the locals because they cant fine them, but they sure as heck fined us. It's all about the Benjamins.

 

[NYBo]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

A regular tank costs what, $40 for a 12 gallon tank? 30% increase makes it $52. How many does someone buy a year? Most people use the one they have for years so to me if $12 spread out over three or four years helps keep our air and water cleaner I'm all for it.

Heck, I've spent more than that on a fancy lure.

The voice of reason and perspective speaks! Thanks, Bubba.

The EPA isn't going to destroy us, but given the chance to act without limits, we will foul our nest beyond habitability. It's almost possible for a person to fully comprehend the impact of his/her own actions if multiplied by hundreds/thousands/millions/billions. The Earth seems limitless, but it isn't.

 

[Treager]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I posted a warning back in November:
Either way, it reduces the cycle time and tightens the window for a tank that can meet quality and permeation requirements.

I meant "increases cycle time"

*sorry*

 

[infideltarget]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

The voice of reason and perspective speaks! Thanks, Bubba.

The EPA isn't going to destroy us, but given the chance to act without limits, we will foul our nest beyond habitability. It's almost possible for a person to fully comprehend the impact of his/her own actions if multiplied by hundreds/thousands/millions/billions. The Earth seems limitless, but it isn't.

Agreed...to a point. We cant all run amok and expect to have a satisfactory quality of life. However, once a bureaucracy like the EPA is formed, it simply MUST self perpetuate or it will lose funding, so they keep looking to find the most insignificant crap to bring to light, and sell it as a crisis. It is "job justification". I work for the Gov't, I live this every day. Just like the gas station vents that were mentioned earlier...if it were such a huge crisis, it most certainly WOULD have been mandated for ALL stations. They only mandated it for the areas with "bad air", which is typically a larger metropolitan area, with a larger coffer to pull fines for noncompliance from. Seems to me, these vapors they are so concerned with coming from small fuel containers would be better contained by making those remaining stations capture THOSE vapors. Gas is gas right? Same vapors, right? The gas stations are putting out HUGE volumes when compared to a fuel tank in a boat, right? Where's the regulation on them? It's not in place because there is NO MONEY IN IT. Jethro's corner fuel stop ain't gonna' have the cash to pay a fine for venting to the atmosphere, so there is no regulation on it. 5 miles up the road, inside the city limits, the EXXON station must have vapor recovery in place, to protect the air quality. Exxon has deep pockets to pay a fine for non-compliance, so the regulation is in place. The EPA cares to an extent about the environment, which is good! They (we) should. But in the end, its still all about the Benjamins.

 

[dirtleg]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Agreed...to a point. We cant all run amok and expect to have a satisfactory quality of life. However, once a bureaucracy like the EPA is formed, it simply MUST self perpetuate or it will lose funding, so they keep looking to find the most insignificant crap to bring to light, and sell it as a crisis. It is "job justification". I work for the Gov't, I live this every day. Just like the gas station vents that were mentioned earlier...if it were such a huge crisis, it most certainly WOULD have been mandated for ALL stations. They only mandated it for the areas with "bad air", which is typically a larger metropolitan area, with a larger coffer to pull fines for noncompliance from. Seems to me, these vapors they are so concerned with coming from small fuel containers would be better contained by making those remaining stations capture THOSE vapors. Gas is gas right? Same vapors, right? The gas stations are putting out HUGE volumes when compared to a fuel tank in a boat, right? Where's the regulation on them? It's not in place because there is NO MONEY IN IT. Jethro's corner fuel stop ain't gonna' have the cash to pay a fine for venting to the atmosphere, so there is no regulation on it. 5 miles up the road, inside the city limits, the EXXON station must have vapor recovery in place, to protect the air quality. Exxon has deep pockets to pay a fine for non-compliance, so the regulation is in place. The EPA cares to an extent about the environment, which is good! They (we) should. But in the end, its still all about the Benjamins.

love the thread, just bought one of these new enclosed tanks.....trouble was I didn't realize that if you leave the fuel line hooked up to your engine, what you basically have is a pressurized tank...so I walk out to my boat the other day, you know the one I put 10 gallons of gas in....all gone as the tank got warm during the day it pushed all my gas out to the engine and onto the ground...awesome...so now I have to go back and buy a "fuel demand" valve that will keep the pressure in the tank from pushing all the gas out...lovely, that will probably be 20 bucks and oh yeah, the tank was 99 bucks at wally world to begin with...soooooo....sure do miss those old tanks...but wait...how about I take the old vented top off one of my old tanks and put in on the new tank...problem solved....a little old mixed with a little new. but seriously it's not the epa's fault it's governments fault..it pulls in power by it's very nature(I am not being political just observing a natural occurrence like watching a hurricane get bigger) the problem is that they do have too much power so any little old idea they come up with become a rule we have to follow before anyone is REALLY sure it makes much sense.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

Gee, I thought this thread died over a year ago. :facepalm:

 

[dirtleg]

Re: New EPA regulations on marine fuel tanks means higher costs

I guess it did, but this situation just happened to me and I wanted to rant