New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

[bigred177]

I am working on a cleaning up a new to me 1985 Force 50 507X5A. The PO said he was driving it around the lake and it overheated. He let it rest for a while and started it again and idled back to the ramp and it shut off again as he was coming up to the ramp.

After taking everything apart I can see why. Aside from the mud dauber nests and the stripped out impeller this thing is tip top .

Also, it was leaking a little from the prop shaft so I pulled the bearing cage.

From these pictures do you recommend I get the entire water pump assembly or can I salvage the housing? Also do I need a new bearing cage or can I stick a new prop seal on there? I'm thinking I need a whole new cage from the pic. The edges appear to be corroding away. I also have some rust on the drive shaft I wanted to get off. Any suggestions? I was going to take some emory cloth and see if I could polish out the inside of the impeller housing and maybe smooth that rust on the drive shaft.

Also, Is there a good way to hook a water hose to the water intake for the powerhead? I want to make sure this thing still runs before I put too much money into it.

Thanks

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

The water pump body still looks serviceable. The stainless plate looks about how they all look. It appears to be re-useable. If the top seal does not look worn, is not hardened, or not cracked, it is OK to re-use. Otherwise replace it.

The bearing carrier shows a decent amount of corrosion. It may still be serviceable but if you can find a good one cheap, replacing is the way to go to avoid long term problems. If the bearing has remained on the propshaft, simply pull out the old seal. If the sealing surfaces are good, you can press in a new seal.

The carriers are rather expensive new and typically, one of the mounting ears breaks, requiring replacement.

If it is a 1985 lower unit, there should be water intake slots on the side of the lower unit just above the gearcase. You need to buy a set of small muffs to clamp on. With the lower unit off, you can simply slip a hose over the brass water delivery tube and start the engine.

If the lower unit has the water pick-up on the exhaust snout, there is no way to clamp on anything (unless you get really creative) The engine must be immersed in water.

As far as rust, emery is OK. I use a green Skotchbrite pad and coat the shaft with anti-seize. The brass ring at the top of the shaft may be a little tight and not slip-fit. If it is, use an open end wrench under it and hammer it up. It will come without damage.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Great, thanks.

The top seal on my housing is pretty bad. I think I'll get a new one just to be safe. So really I only need to buy a new impeller and clean up the housing a little?

I found a cheap, new bearing cage. I think I'm going to buy that and then I can have a spare if I need it. For the price it's not worth messing around with getting the bearing and old seal apart.

My LU has the vents on the side of the LU but the unit is already off. I reckon I'll just have someone hold a hose on the pickup tube while I start it.

It is my understanding from reading on here that the little brass ring at the top of the shaft is to hold on a grease boot correct? I had about 4 pieces of rubber come out with my LU so I'm guessing that's the boot. Since there isn't a boot any more the ring is no longer necessary correct?

 

[phillyg]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

......................From these pictures do you recommend I get the entire water pump assembly or can I salvage the housing

The pump housing looks too far gone; I would replace it.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Many early Chrysler engines came without the boot. It is a so-called seal to keep moisture out of the steel crankshaft which will rust and weld the drive shaft in. If you simply cover the splines of the driveshaft completely with a light coating of anti-seize, you should have no problems without a boot.

The pump body does appear to have one very deep gouge at the bottom of the photo but I still think it is salvageable. However, I am not there: It really is your call. Remember this though. The pump operated for the better part of its life as a centrifugal pump. water pressure forces the impeller vanes away from the pump wall. If the top of the body and the bottom stainless plate are OK, then the pump will deliver water.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Well I cleaned on the housing and the plate today and they both cleaned up nicely. I will give them a shot and see how it goes.

Put some fresh gas in the tank and hooked the engine up to a hot battery and it started in about 5 cranks. I had put some two stroke oil into the cylinders before that so that's probably why it took so long to fire haha. Tough little guy. It had been overheated to the point of shutting off twice and then put straight into storage.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?




F338129-1 SEAL, DRIVESHAFT SPLINE 24.00
The rubber seal is avaiable.
The new "carrier" make sure you pressure test it after you install.
It's not that hard to reseal. F141118 SEAL, PROPELLER SHAFT 5.00
Just make sure the prop shaft is smooth where the seal rides.
Like Frank suggested special muff is needed for the 50 and smaller motors of the early years.See pic.
If you try to use any other muffs,duct tape them in place and make sure they seal.
The housing is in pretty good shape considering the age.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

I think I'll just empty out my trash can for the engine; it holds about 30 gallons. I don't need *another* set of muffs haha. I saw that shaft seal but considering how corroded my old cage was and the price I got the new one, it wasn't worth messing with. Now I'll have a spare if I ever need it.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

So I got my parts in and got everything back together. I have a new problem now.

It will start and run okay for a second but then it will start leaking water from around the head gasket area(?) and act like it's missing. Eventually it will die if it runs at idle for too long. I can keep it going with throttle. I am uploading a video of it now. I have good compression in both cylinders and the plugs look fine after running it. The gas is not old but is not new either, could that be the problem?

The water leak. You can't see exactly where it's coming from here but it's between the top and bottom head bolt on this side. What are the torque values on these bolts? Are they torque to yield?

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

And the running/stumbling

 

[Nordin]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

The torque is 270 in Pound. Pull of the head and check the gasket and the surface of the head and block.
Torque the head in a round pattern starting from center and do the torque in three steps. Start with about 100, then 200 and finally 270 in Pound.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

That miss sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Coupled with the fact that the engine runs OK at higher throttle settings, it leads me to believe you have a low speed fuel circuit problem. This is causing a lean condition. Do not continue to run the engine like this.

Remove the carb, disassemble it and clean it. pay special attention to the small diameter brass tube and the low speed needle and passages. Clean the several holes in the top of the carb casting at the rear butterfly.



When reassembling the carb, set the low speed needle to 1 1/4 turns out from lightly seated to start. When adjusting it, do not lean to more than 7/8 turn out. Too lean will melt pistons at or near full throttle and sometimes at partial throttle too.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Well ****. I was pulling the head bolts and they seem to have had years and years and years to collect junk/rust. They were very hard to get out even with some lube. I ended up breaking off the two in the very middle of the head. The are broken on the non-threaded part that sits in the head. Does anyone have any ideas how to remedy something like this?

I also took the fuel pump and carb. off. The filter screen looks fine and I can't tell if the pump diaphragm is okay or not. I will get some pics up soon.

Frank, I am looking at the carb. and all I see is the bowl with the float and one needle coming up. I don't see any adjustment screws. I will take some photos so maybe y'all can point out what I'm missing.

Also, I have never had a key for this boat. I have just been using a series of toggles. I read online that you can get some numbers off of some ignition switches and get a new key. Does anyone know if I can do this with a Force or would it just be easier to buy a new push to choke ignition?

Thanks guys. Pics soon.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Yep! The aluminum head has corroded and practically welded itself to the bolts. At this point you must heat the head really hot and pry it off the bolts. It is not going to be an easy job, you will certainly destroy the head gasket and you may end up damaging the sealing surfaces of the head and block. Drilling is really not an option because of the length of the bolts, however, you can try to drill, hoping it will relieve some of the pressure grabbing the bolts.

The carb has no adjustment screws inside. The low speed circuit is a small diameter brass tube that runs inside the center of the casting from the jet, up through the venture, and into the top of the carb. In the front of the carb is a brass needle which controls fuel flow. Many think it is an air bleed because some newer carbs do have a brass jet in this circuit. Remove the needle and clean it and the hole in the carb with a pipe cleaner. Make sure you go all the way in, back to the metered holes.

At the butterfly, in the top of the casting there will be one to four metered holes. If these are clogged low speed and off idle will be too lean. You can remove the welsh plug at the top of the carb to clean inside but then you need to replace and seal the welsh plug with a new one. Personally, I prefer to simply clean the holes with a soft copper wire of the correct diameter.

The float and needle in the bowl regulate the height of the fuel and shut it off when the bowl is full. These should be removed and cleaned along with the needle seat and the inlet fuel nipple.

As I understand, there were only about six different keys for the original Chrysler ignition switches and yes, some did have a reference number. However, by the time you look for one, go to a cooperative marina, and buy a key, you are better off buying a standard six pole, push-to-choke, standard ignition switch---for about 20 bucks right here on iboats stores. And at least you know it is new so it will not malfunction.

EDIT: Wait, did you mean you snapped the 9/16 head (head bolts) or the 7/16 bolts that hold on the water cover? If you can remove the head, then the other bolts are really not too important and you can leave them---or you can drill and re-tap. But just don't go too deep. They almost always snap off if you try to remove them.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

I believe they are the head bolts. The 10 bolts on the same plane as the spark plugs.

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

On the side of the carb that has the butterfly controls about halfway between the front and back I have a little hole at the top. Looking up from the fuel bowl I can see a hole that looks like it is a passage to that same hole. Should there be some sort of plug or something there?

 

[bigred177]

Re: New impeller housing or just impeller and new bearing cage and prop shaft seal?

Okay, so, I've been trying to use heat, candle wax, and pb blaster to get this head off. The problem is, since I have 2 bolts stuck, the head is going to have to slide straight off. I can't work the head back and forth off of one bolt. I can buy a replacement head for $30 on craigslist. Is it worth the entire day or frustration and possibility of still messing something up to save $30 or should I just cut this head off and put on another one?