New vs. Reman. Engines???

[Bubba1235]

See several posts looking for new crate engines and I wonder why new over a reman. engine. To my way of looking at it, a reman. engine has proven itself over its life span while a new engine is largely untried. For me, if a reman. engine is brought back to factory specs. on tolerances I'd go with that every time. Both becasue its proven and is usually much cheaper.

What's your take?

 

[Don S]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

See several posts looking for new crate engines and I wonder why new over a reman. engine.

Depends on who rebuilds them. Personally you couldn't make me buy one of the remans from one of the popular places. No time for proper care when you sell them for 1500 to 2000 dollars which includes the labor, parts, and overhead. No room for profit unless you cut one of the three items.

 

[Cheetah 210es]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

I'm with you on properly remanufactured units. Done with the right parts to specs and tolerances they are often better than new units in my opinion.

 

[Tahorover]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Ask your local machine shop, the new hecho en mexico castings are very poor quality. I will take a seasoned block!

 

[99yam40]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

You never know what was done to the rebuilt motor.
How many pistons and cylinders were over-sized,
what kind of parts were used
was it run in salt before and cooling passages or other parts corroded, these aluminum motors are not like the old cast iron automotive blocks
did they replace all of the internal anodes
And what took the motor out of commission and caused it to need rebuilding.

Like they say you get what you pay for

 

[Don S]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Basically your poll choices are flawed. Your first choice says Reman are just as good if not better
If the job is done by a quicky/sell cheap rebuild shop to make money or by a DIYer that has never rebuilt an engine before, then they aren't worth much.
Had you put in a professionally rebuilt by someone that took their time and checked all the parts, and did the job right, then your poll would have meant something.

 

[Don S]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Huh? Never seen an aluminum block in marine use that didn't have closed cooling, salt water never touches the block.

He was referring to outboards, they are aluminum. But outboard owners think aluminum will outlast saltwater. And as you may know, it's always best to change your IO boat to an outboard, because they are cheap to throw away and replace.

 

[arks]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Over the years I've had both a new crate engine and a remanufactured marine engine. Both were professionally installed.
I had more problems with the new engine than the reman, but in my case it didn't have anything to do with the internals.
I agree with Don, reman quality can vary a lot.
Do your homework before buying one- check the shops reputation and their warranty.
Those 2 things mean more than just saving a few bucks.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Having actually worked with the machines used to Rebuild an engine I can say Don is pretty much right on the money.
I worked in a small but fully equipped custom shop. We often tore down reman engines that customers had used for a short time and were unhappy with there performance. You wouldnt believe all of the out of spec stuff we found. The reman business is all about pumping out as many engines as possible while keeping the least amount of parts on hand. They will cut any corner they can get away with. They also machine everything on the loose side of spec. The loose side is better than the tight side as some installers are to careless to use proper start up procedures and will burn up a tight engine before it can be broken in properly.
I'm sure there are some good rebuilders out there but i would go the small shop route or new before reman if it were something i was going to own for a while.
They are cheaper for a reason!

 

[99yam40]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

He was referring to outboards, they are aluminum. But outboard owners think aluminum will outlast saltwater. And as you may know, it's always best to change your IO boat to an outboard, because they are cheap to throw away and replace.

Don was right, I forgot what forum I was in.
Sorry, I do not wonder very often from the Yamaha forum.
But back in my younger days as a automotive mechanic, it was scary to see what was done to those re-manufactured motors. Seems like they would throw stuff together and hope it made it through the warranty.
But I do not have much experience with the marine motors, beside pulling and installing a few gas and diesel motors for friends

 

[99yam40]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Just an FYI: It's not at all uncommom for NEW engines to use different sized rings, bearings, etc. to get the right tolerances.

Motors and motor parts made to manufacture new specs should not need to use non standard parts to make them function properly, but when they are re-manufactured you get a lot of variances from spec to clean up the problems that caused them to be pulled/junked the 1st time. Wielding and grinding cranks and punching out only the cylinders that need to be to clean them up are just some of the things that come to mind right now

 

[billbayliner]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Part of the reason that a remanufactured engine cost less is due to the re-use of an existing block casting, cylinder heads castings, crankshaft, tin ware, etc.
New engines must include this cost and feed the hungry GM machine.
The same or even better quality re-build components than used in a new engine will run approximately $350 to $450.
[example picture only]

Add camshaft and lifters--- $150 to $195 or a bit more for roller.

An over-bore of .030" is only .015" off the wall.
A crankshaft turned .010" under is only .005" off each journal face. I read where some are .020" under [or .010" off the face]
That's hardly anything to make an issue out of.

So if a re-man is priced at $2,000 +/- and if you deduct the shop's parts cost of lets say $550 +/- that leaves $1,450 for machine work, assembly and profit.
They probably have some good buying power so that $550 is probably a bit fat.
So if there is $1,450 to play with, and the machinist wage is $30 hr and even if they did not turn a profit, that's almost 48 shop hours for the labor.
The average machine shop time for all tear-down, cleaning, machining and assembly is 16 to 20 hours.
No corners cut!
If they cut corners its going to come back and kick them in the rear.

One real plus for custom building is that you can make a better piston choice from the GM full-dished piston. Even more important for the 383 build. Cost might be an extra $200 or so.
You can still use cast aluminum, hypereutectic or even forged if you wanted to.
But you'll always get the full-dished with the later GM SBC motor and almost always with many of the re-builders if you don't specify.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

The average machine shop time for all tear-down, cleaning, machining and assembly is 16 to 20 hours.
No corners cut!

Where are you getting this number from? No corners cut????

Are you familiar with the "tricks" that (some) Reman builders use to freshen up and engine and call it re-manufactured? Again I'm sure like anything else there are "Good" Reman builders out there but Ive seen many who are not.

There are books written on how to re-machine a small block Chevy. I'm just pointing out that, its a lot of info, if you were to check everything there is no way one could perform all these tasks in 16-20 hours day in and day out.

It is especially important to check things when all of the parts from multiple engines are thrown in a massive core pile and then pieced back together to assemble a complete engine. This is what most reman builders do.

If one were to properly rebuild a pair of typical small block Chevy heads back to original spec, even a well equipped shop could spend a full 10 hours on just the heads. Reman builders typically just clean, inspect, "fix" a few guides, grind the seats/valves, shim/grind to "no go" specs, surface (often without consideration to the plane/geometry), and reassemble using most if not all of the original components.

Ill take new heads any day compared to reman. Now a custom shop is a different story.

Do you know what BHJ tooling is? All custom shops will, none of the Remans will likely have any of it.

I could give you endless examples of inferior ways that reman shops operate that is the reason they have their well deserved poor reputation with many folks who know better! That said, they have there place in the world, its just not a good comparison to new!

They also very often run used/rebuilt cams and lifters. Yuk!

 

[billbayliner]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Joe, since Bubba is in Missouri, I used $US in my first post.

1. Where are you getting this number from? No corners cut????
   
2. Are you familiar with the "tricks" that (some) Reman builders use to freshen up and engine and call it re-manufactured? Again I'm sure like anything else there are "Good" Reman builders out there but Ive seen many who are not.
   
3. There are books written on how to re-machine a small block Chevy. I'm just pointing out that, its a lot of info, if you were to check everything there is no way one could perform all these tasks in 16-20 hours day in and day out.
   
4. It is especially important to check things when all of the parts from multiple engines are thrown in a massive core pile and then pieced back together to assemble a complete engine.
   
5. This is what most reman builders do.
   
6. If one were to properly rebuild a pair of typical small block Chevy heads back to original spec, even a well equipped shop could spend a full 10 hours on just the heads. Reman builders typically just clean, inspect, "fix" a few guides, grind the seats/valves, shim/grind to "no go" specs, surface (often without consideration to the plane/geometry), and reassemble using most if not all of the original components.
   
7. Ill take new heads any day compared to reman. Now a custom shop is a different story.
   
8. Do you know what BHJ tooling is? All custom shops will, none of the Remans will likely have any of it.
   
9. I could give you endless examples of inferior ways that reman shops operate that is the reason they have their well deserved poor reputation with many folks who know better! That said, they have there place in the world, its just not a good comparison to new!
   
10. They also very often run used/rebuilt cams and lifters. Yuk!

1. My own experience and in talking to several people with experience.
   
   
2. I would try to avoid using a shop that would do this. Maybe get involved with our overhauls by educating ourselves.
   
   
3. There are shops who can do this and do this time and again. Even if we added several hours to this [for a basic SBC flat tappet marine engine overhaul], they can still turn a profit without cutting corners. If a block needs to be decked, or if cylinder heads need to be surfaced or need other extensive work, this would be an add. Or they use another core.
   How do think companies like ChicagoEngines or MichiganMotors can stay in business when they are also offering these SBC Marine remans in this price range? Look at what they can offer a new SBC for!
   
   
4. Joe, sorry to hear of your not so good experiences, but you might be lumping the inferior shops in with the good reputable shops. I don't know of any reputable machine shop that would throw a bunch of parts together and mix them up for a single engine overhaul.
   If they are cutting corners, how many engines do you think would come back to them? I'd say that enough would come back to cause either closing their doors or to change their policy and procedure.
   These inferior shops aren't going to last long and they aren't going to earn your business in the first place!
   
   
5. My turn. Where are you getting this from?
   
   
6. Joe, every shop who overhauls customer's cores, gives themselves the option of rejecting parts if they don't make the cut. If the heads are not acceptable for reuse, I would agree. Grab a different set of like castings.
   But if acceptable, then what is wrong with new guides, springs, valves, seat cut, etc for a marine motor that will be turning in the 4,000 rpm and below range?
   If you are talking about HP Marine, then our conversation isn't going to work.
   
   
7. How many shops advertise NO Custom Work? These guys love custom work.
   
   
8. Assumption or fact? Real experience, or hear say?
   
   
9. I'm sure that lots of us could give examples, so I don't disagree!
   
   
10. I don't know of any shops that would reuse a flat tappet cam and lifters.
    As I'm sure you know, the sbc roller cams and lifters can go for up to 150-200k miles in auto use, which equates to XXX hours of marine use. Even at that, unless a customer specified, the roller cam and lifters would be replaced. It might not fit into the $2,000 overhaul budget so it would be an extra. I doubt this would put the project over budget [considering the roller cam].
    

Joe, if you are against remans, then there's no changing your mind. Its like bad experience at the dentist office! You'll be reluctant to visit that dentist again, but it doesn't mean that all dentists are bad.


We should get involved with our overhauls by first educating ourselves and by finding out just what the shop will be doing and maybe by helping make some of the decisions and parts selections. For example there's nothing that says we need to use the sbc full dished pistons. Nothing says that if you're FWC'd that you can't use a high grade automotive head gasket and save a few dollars.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

Joe, since Bubba is in Missouri, I used $US in my first post.

1. My own experience and in talking to several people with experience.
   
2. I would try to avoid using a shop that would do this. Maybe get involved with our overhauls by educating ourselves.
   
   
3. There are shops who can do this and do this time and again. Even if we added several hours to this [for a basic SBC flat tappet marine engine overhaul], they can still turn a profit without cutting corners. If a block needs to be decked, or if cylinder heads need to be surfaced or need other extensive work, this would be an add. Or they use another core.
   How do think companies like ChicagoEngines or MichiganMotors can stay in business when they are also offering these SBC Marine remans in this price range? Look at what they can offer a new SBC for!
   
   
4. Joe, sorry to hear of your not so good experiences, but you might be lumping the inferior shops in with the good reputable shops. I don't know of any reputable machine shop that would throw a bunch of parts together and mix them up for a single engine overhaul.
   If they are cutting corners, how many engines do you think would come back to them? I'd say that enough would come back to cause either closing their doors or to change their policy and procedure.
   These inferior shops aren't going to last long and they aren't going to earn your business in the first place!
   
   
   
5. My turn. Where are you getting this from?
   
   
6. Joe, every shop who overhauls customer's cores, gives themselves the option of rejecting parts if they don't make the cut. If the heads are not acceptable for reuse, I would agree. Grab a different set of like castings.
   But if acceptable, then what is wrong with new guides, springs, valves, seat cut, etc for a marine motor that will be turning in the 4,000 rpm and below range?
   
   
7. How many shops advertise NO Custom Work? These guys love custom work.
   
   
8. Assumption or fact? Real experience, or hear say?
   
   
9. I'm sure that lots of us could give examples, so I don't disagree!
   
   
10. I don't know of any shops that would reuse a flat tappet cam and lifters.
    As I'm sure you know, the sbc roller cams and lifters can go for up to 150-200k miles in auto use, which equates to XXX hours of marine use. Even at that, unless a customer specified, the roller cam and lifters would be replaced. It might not fit into the $2,000 overhaul budget so it would be an extra. I doubt this would put the project over budget [considering the roller cam].
    

Joe, if you are against remans, then there's no changing your mind. Its like bad experience at the dentist office! You'll be reluctant to visit that dentist again, but it doesn't mean that all dentists are bad.



We should get involved with our overhauls by first educating ourselves and by finding out just what the shop will be doing and maybe by helping make some of the decisions and parts selections. For example there's nothing that says we need to use the sbc full dished pistons. Nothing says that if you're FWC'd that you can't use a high grade automotive head gasket and save a few dollars.

1. I too am talking with quite a bit of experience. I have actually performed all of the tasks myself while working in a performance oriented shop. Pretty much the only thing i have not done is grind a crank.

2. Im tring to assist in helping other by posting in a thread that is comparing a reman engine to a new one. Which is silly.

3. The difference currently in a new verses reman, vortec 5.7, from Michigan motors is $350.00. When you factor the crate fee for the reman it comes to only $200.00 difference. Again, I'm going with the new. If you look at there specs for reman you might just get a polished, already run crank. Yuk!

4. There is an inferior shop near me that has been in business for decades. They sell reman small blocks pre vortec for less than $1,000.00. They are what they are.. overboard, cleaned up, reassembled and out the door. For a used car lot selling a 5,000.00 pick up that's fine but people shouldn't consider them a good solution for their boat. I know you are talking about the "nicer" reman which do a lot more but they still are not comparable to a new GM engine. By the way i am a big believer in small custom shops, and would almost always use one. I am generally looking for better than new. That being said, If my bone stock Chevy pickup spits out the engine, its getting a GM crate engine without a second thought. I helped a friend install a vortec small block from Michigan motors that ran very well. Smoked a little, he knew he was only keeping it for the season and sold it.

5. I worked for a couple years while in college at a small performance shop. We tore down lots of the reman motors. They have the tags glued to them so they are easy to spot. Once you tear into them it is quite comical what you find. I could write a book. I wish it were not pre digital media, i would have pictures.

6. I seriously doubt they are replacing guides, they probably ream them over and install cheap two piece oversize stemmed valves. Or they might use liners, sleeved or spiral. They also often reuse the worn out springs. A common complaint about reman is that they float the valves easily.

7. They might love custom money, but i doubt they are equipped to actually properly perform the custom work.

8. The three custom shops that i frequent all have BHJ tooling. The two remans that i frequent(although its been a while) don't.The remans near me are also the core suppliers, so i have sold them cores and dug through there core pile many times. I have been in their shops and know how they operate. Their shops are not even clean enough to assemble a nice engine.

9. That would take all day.

10. Reusing refurbished cams and lifters has been a common practice for years, if you don't believe me call any cam company. They clean, polish, weld, regrind cam blanks and lifter bottoms. They will even re-coat the flat tappets with that black film, parkerizing i think they call it. Hard to tell they are not new.


They are not necessarily bad experiences, just saying its not comparing apples to apples, new verses reman. Cheap and nice reman both have their place in the world. Just sharing my experiences.

 

[99yam40]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

There is a big difference in rebuilding you motor and buying a re-manufactured or a new crate motor.
this thread was not about rebuilding a motor you have.

If you are not there to watch what is being done, you have to hope for the best , but at least you know who is working on your motor if you are having it rebuilt at a shop or doing it yourself.
During the rebuild you have some say in what you want.

You are never there when a re manufacturer is building the motor and you will have no idea what was done to the motor.
What parts were replaced with new,what was reconditioned to get withing specs., what was still able to meet the specs, or even what specs they used.
Not sure what they do now a days but back in the 60s & 70s some still knurled and reamed valve guides instead of replacing them, reconditioned rods, replace only the valve seats that they had to along with rod bolts. I even saw some pistons skirts knurled.
Now I am sowing my age, oops.
They are only warrantying it to make it through a short amount of time and will do it the cheapest way they can to increase the profit.
Re-manufactured motors go into things you normally do not plan on keeping for long, just make it work until you can sell it.
Kind of Makes you think hard about buying used autos and trucks along with I/O boats now, don't it.

Rebuilding motors is a totally different ball game
and everyone have there own opinion on these subjects

 

[billbayliner]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

There is a big difference in rebuilding you motor and buying a re-manufactured or a new crate motor. this thread was not about rebuilding a motor you have.

99yam40, I didn't read that into Bubba's thread title or first post.

Joe, I don't doubt your experience at all. You sound like you know what you are talking about.
But I don't think that a comparison is silly. That's what Bubba asks for in his thread title "New vs. Reman. Engines" and I think his poll is asking the same thing. He does not specify whether the reman is locally done or supplied by a major rebuilder. Either/or, I don't see how we can post to Bubba's thread or vote in the poll without comparing the two?

How do we know that these GM assembly line workers are doing a better job day after day after day, compared to how a good reputable local machine might put one together?

Lets not leave out that a custom build lets us use a better piston than the full dished piston. GM will not do this for the later marine engine, so if this was important to us, we'd have to go early GM 5.7 with the 76cc chamber heads and f/t pistons. Or, we custom build one with the right piston for the smaller 64cc heads! Works with the 6.2 also. In talking to a friend in the states Michiganmotors will do a custom build using a quench piston [better against detonation] and allows for more low end torque. Your local machine shop can do this also if you ask them to.

True.... no two of us will see this the same way. Good topic though.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

I didn't read that into Bubba's thread title or first post.

Joe, I don't doubt your experience at all. You sound like you know what you are talking about.
But I don't think that a comparison is silly. That's what Bubba asks for in his thread title "New vs. Reman. Engines". He does not specify whether the reman is locally done or supplied by a major rebuilder. Either/or, how can we post to Bubba's thread without comparing the two?

How do we know that these GM assembly line workers are doing a better job day after day after day, compared to how a good reputable local machine might put one together.

Lets not leave out that a custom build allows us to use a better piston than the full dished piston. GM will not do this for the later marine engine, so if this was important to us, we'd have to go early GM 5.7 with the 76cc chamber heads and f/t pistons. Or, we custom build one with the right piston for the smaller 64cc heads! In talking to a friend in the states Michiganmotors will do a custom build using a quench piston [better against detonation than the full dish] and allows for more low end torque. Your local machine shop can do this also if you ask them to.

True.... no two of us will see this the same way. Good topic though.

Maybe i shouldn't use the word "silly".... but

GM uses purpose built one off custom equipment to manufacture engines. Some of which would not even fit in your typical machine shop. Machine shops use much smaller equipment that is much more dependent on the user of the equipment.

Comparing a new engine to a typical reman is comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure there are some very quality minded reman builders out there that do good job. If they were concerned with doing an exceptional job above all else they would be running a custom shop.

I would venture to say that the better reman builders probably try there best to use cores that are in good shape and keep heads in pairs and short blocks... block crank and rods together in groups. This will raise success levels greatly if you are not checking everything.

A custom shop takes the time to measure and machine the parts to better than new precision. Again going into detail would consume pages and pages. To give one or two examples, we would sometimes go through 20 or more rods to get 8 that spec'd out the way we wanted. Some blocks have so much core shift there isn't enough material to "blueprint" them or perfect the center lines and geometry of everything.

It is an interesting topic.

As a side note.. When i was young and poor we used those cheap reman short blocks i mentioned for cheap performance builds. This was before I worked in a performance shop of course. They sometimes ran really well! I guess because the clearances are on the loose side. They tended to rattle on start up, smoke a little, and never stayed together very long. We just swapped our ported heads/intake and big cams to the next short block. Those were good times. LOL

The big reman shop in town would let us look through the racks of assembled short blocks they had and pick the one we wanted based on block casting#, crank, type of rods etc. Prices were all the same!

 

[billbayliner]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

I just looked in, and it looks like a silent majority is in favor of a good remanufactured engine over new.
As of this morning 66.67% in favor of reman, 33.33% in favor of new!

 

[99yam40]

Re: New vs. Reman. Engines???

99yam40, I didn't read that into Bubba's thread title or first post.

True.... no two of us will see this the same way. Good topic though.

I wounder how many others see this as a difference of what he meant (big difference in rebuilding your motor and buying a re-manufactured or new crate motor, this thread was not about rebuilding a motor you have)