Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

[mxcobra]

I order from us composite.
Asked for their advice on what to order this is my first glass project!
Told him i was using rovin roving- for cost , and I like thr industial look.
I was sold 404 resin.
Tryed to order csm, was told that it was unesacery............
so now i got 25 yards of rovin roving-404, but no csm to do the layup!!!
Im getting close now,
Can i really do this job with just roving wovin-.....

 

[oops!]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

i have never dealt with us comp....so i don't know what 404 is.....

if its an epoxy resin........you don't need csm.

if its a polyester resin......yes you need csm.....if its poly and they told you you didn't need csm......they should be fired....on the freaking spot

EDIT.....add.......there is a 6 oz woven roving that is so thin that you necessarily need to use csm with....if it is going on a flat substrate....it will work....but is not the optimum that a csm will give you.

you said industrial look....so i assume you mean a larger 17-24 oz weave

 

[oops!]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

i just looked.......404 is an iso poly resin........fire him !.....man those guys are pricy

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

You MUST have CSM with 404 Poly Resin. I would recommend the 435 resin and not the 404. I would also call them back and tell them that selling roven woven without CSM is absolutely unprofessional and, as OOPS said, the tech that told you that should be reprimanded or fired.

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

404 is a tooling resin. I use it for making molds, good stuff, but as already said, you must use the CSM as your first layer. Now not sure what you're doing with it, but in a new situation if you use Roven Woving as your first layer you'll have really bad print thru and a lousy bond. You need a couple or three layers of CSM before the roving and then top it with another layer of CSM.

 

[oops!]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

actually csm must be used between each layer of any woven roving.

resin is very brittle, and woven roving's nature is to create pockets of resin between the weave. the csm, due to its shorter hair construction will create a resin sponge between the woven and make the laminate far far stronger.

 

[mxcobra]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

Before i did this post I did call him back, becouse of what I know from i boats
I was told he has 3 boats he is building and the 404 and wovin is sufficiant "thats all the boat manufactures use"
so i did try some practice lay ups with a single layer of rovin.
the first peeled right off
the second i preped way better dryed it better at a higher temp and cut the layup off from air ( far better )
then i let it sit outside in the snow and water evan some mud....
i did get it to peel some but not without the chisal and hammer, she also took some wood with her. when i got in deep the connection was solid???
i will get csm to go with the 18oz wovin just sucks becouse in colorado good luck finding any glass!!!

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

FYI - I had the exact same experience. I called to place my order and he tried to talk me out me out of CSM as well. He told me it had no structural value whatsoever and would be a pain to work with. I told him I was just using it for intermediate/build-up layers and water proofing and that I was going to use it in conjunction with 1708. He told me that to use 1708 for the whole thing and to cap my stringers with figerglass tape. He told me the CSM would not flex like 1708 and CSM would crack under stress and let water in.

While I think they are a good company (and many on here are pleased with them), I just hung up and placed my order through someone else. There are too many knowledgeable folks on here that have used CSM, so I ordered an entire roll of it from the other company.

When I called the next company, I just told them what exactly I wanted and did not ask for any advice or questions, and it went a lot faster/smoother. IMHO, if they sense they you have questions about what to order, etc.., they give you their opinion on how to do it, what to by, etc.. (this may be well-intended, but can also create confusion)... I'm not saying their "way" or "opinion" is not valid (they sell this stuff for a living), but I trust the folks on here who are experienced/ objective and don't have a financial interest in what I am ordering.

Hope this helps.
Patrick

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

I sent an email to USComposites about their technical response to mxcobra's request. I received the following response. I received his approval to post his email response here on the forum.


Hi Mike,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, it is much appreciated. You are absolutely correct. Fiberglass mat must be used in conjunction with the woven roving for proper bonding between layers.
I?m sorry your members were given some misguided information on the roving and mat, this will get fixed immediately.
I don?t really know who the customer is referred to as MXCOBRA, but if you could pass a message to him on the forum that we will give him ?free shipping? on the mat, if he still is in need of it.

I also saw one of the posts mentioning the 404 resin. One of my phone reps here prefers working with 404 resin, I know he wasn?t intentionally trying to up-sell anybody(we don?t do commission), he just likes how it wets-out the fabrics easier and also more moisture resistant than typical ortho-polyester resins. I know this is an additional cost and is not for everyone so I will make sure he no longer attempts to ?push? that resin option over the 435(our standard marine resin). I don?t like my company being associated with an image of trying to over-sell products.

Feel free to call me if you have any questions.

Thanks again,
Mark Ananos
Owner
US Composites
Ph. 888.659.7022

I then followed up with a phone call and spoke directly to Mark. He assured me that in the Future CSM would always be recommended as a sublayer to Woven Roving.

 

[oops!]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

that is nice.......its not a form letter......

i wonder if he saw the thread before the deletions?....

kudos to them

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

that is nice.......its not a form letter......

i wonder if he saw the thread before the deletions?....

kudos to them

No he did not, but during our conversation, Yes, I spoke with him directly on the phone, I explained how it had caused quite a bit of debate, but the big concesus was that CSM MUST be layed down first and he ws in total agreement. Very apologetic and assured me that technical training would occur immediately to ensure that this would not ever occur again. Very nice guy and was very appreciative that I would take the time to bring this to their attention. That is his direct phone number and email. Wants anyone on iBoats that has a problem or issue to contact him. I was totally impressed.

 

[Pmccraney]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

Thanks WOG. You really went the extra mile on that one... Everyone has different means, methods, and preferences, but there are certain "truisms" or "best practices" that need to be advocated/protected to make sure newbies (like me) don't make costly mistakes (that's the great value of the iboats forums).

Also cool that U.S. composites owned the issue and obviously cares enough to deal with it internally and reach out to the O.P. to make things right.

 

[mxcobra]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

Wow Woodonglass Thanks a million.
Truth be told I never wanted to bash a company.
I depated with myself for mounths rether or not to post this on the forum.
To avoid myself imbersment, and hardship for a company
the funny part is when I palced my order, and asked if this was the right stuff for a boat build.
I was going to buy like a grand worth of glass
80 yards of csm
25 yards of 1708
25 yards of rovin.
Ended up with just 25 yards of roving. and the 404 for the wet out.
So by no means did they try and upsale - they actually doun selled.
The 404 was only 25 dollers more for 5 gallens so what the hay if its better!!!
This is my first glass project-but I like it, its like liquid plastic....
I wish I had the iboats crew's back on my first boat project i probly would have gotten her done..
THANKS FOR THE HELP GUYS!!!!!!

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

I'm just wondering why you'd use rovin?

Buy some 1708

 

[mxcobra]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

becouse rovin has an industrial look, that I like-kinda like carbin fiber....
At half the cost. Of 1708

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

What is the application ?

Are you building a boat or repairs ??

I am gonna assume your building a boat .. it this correct or am I way off base ..

YD.

 

[oops!]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

What is the application ?

Are you building a boat or repairs ??

I am gonna assume your building a boat .. it this correct or am I way off base ..

YD.

there ya are.....where the heck have you been?....

you missed some great stuff here.
by the way....the phrase of the day is "tinny bashing"

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

It will be about the same cost to use woven and csm together. Plus the 1708 will form around the curves better. Woven is a whipping.

 

[garzilla]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

One more poor unemployed soul out there now......I hope u.s. composites will pay his unemployment.

JK!!!

had a guy at work make some comments on a website before that eventually got him fired though...how it made it back to the uppers?....same way, a phone call.

 

[mxcobra]

Re: Ok guys need help making up my mind, on types of fiber glass cloth??????

yeah shes a build!
hear is a pic or two little farther along now........
The csm has been shiped 58.70 for 25 yards no shipping cost yeah!!!!!
Hey frisco - preaty much everything i know was learned from youre vids. good looking out man...
minus the cool layup photos from woodonglass!!!