Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

kodibass

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So I'll ask the experts & let you decide, A buddy and me disagree on this so I would like your thoughts, Back in the day (50's 60's) I say when a person went to buy a outboard at the local marine store, Jonnys were considered a bit fancy-er with a bit more trim options,etc. and cost a tad more and the Rudes were more basic and kinda a work'en mans motor, He says I have it backwards and just the opposite is true? So who's eat'n crow!
 

5150abf

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

I am with your buddy(sorry), I think the Evinrudes were the front line engine since it was Ole Evinrudes company and Johnson came in later, see who wlse chimes in because I very well could be wrong.
 

1946Zephyr

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

One of the same. From 1936, Johnson was acquired by OMC and 1949, they started sharing designs. 1949 and 1950, the QD and Fastwin shared the same lower unit and same basic design in the midsection. 1951, they both colaborated and designed and built the 25hp RD/Big Twin. In 1952, they both colaborated and built the extreme opposite, 3hp JW/Lightwin. In 1953, they re-designed the midsections of the QD and Fastwin and shared the same design. In 1954-55 the design for the midsections and lower units for the Fleetwins and CD's (5 1/2hp) was a shared design. Up until 1956, Johnson had the 5, 5 1/2 and 10hp and Evinrude had the Fleetwin and Fastwin but didn't completely incorporate all the models with both companies, eventhough they both had a lot of the same design in midsections and lower units. In 1956, Johnson and Evinrude completely incorporated the engineering department and decided that all the outboards were going to have the same horsepower, but just have different colors and styling. So from 1956 on, all Johny/Rudes were one of the same, so to speak. The two companies shared all models that they had with each other and sold them under the same line, so don't let anyone bowl schitt you about which one is better, faster, or more dependable. They're all the same.
Ralph Evinrude got Evinrude Motors in 1935, after his dad (Ole') and his mother (Bess) passed away. Shortly after that, about 1936 Evinrude acquired Johnson motors from the Johnson brothers and they become one company. They also had a few smaller companies in OMC such as Lockwood and Gale, but those two faded out through the years. Lockwood was out by the 1940's and Gale was out by 1963. If I'm not mistaken, even Briggs and Stratton is a part of OMC as well, but an off company, so to speak.

So, the bottom line is, Johnson and Evinrude have a couple differences: The color and the shrouds. I noticed by 1969, they looked even more alike, in the shroud design, but just had minor differences in the color.

I also noticed that certain design ideas from each one prevailed. For example, it was actually the Johnson QD (1949)that started OMC with a full shift Lower unit, and Evinrude Fastwin that came out with it a year later. Eventhough Johnson started with the full shift, they had the troublesome front shifter. Evinrude had the first side shifter on the Fastwin model, of 1950. I believe it was also Johnson that came up with the design for the carburetors, because in the early 1950's, Evinrude was buying carburetors from Tillotson and Johnson was building their own. You won't find a Tillotson carburetor on a '54 and later Evinrude though. That could have been another motor design thing that was shared before the 1956 total share crossover.
 

Chinewalker

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

If there was a "second tier" motor brand in that era, it was Gale/Buccaneer. The Gales were typically an older model Johnrude core, or less fully featured, etc. than their Johnrude counterpart. Gale's top model was typically less powerful than Johnrude's.
 

1946Zephyr

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

Yep, that's right too. The Buccaneer was the better line of Gale products and the Sea King (and other private brands)was the lesser expensive line of Gale.

F_R would be the person who would put this issue in more accurate terms than any of us. He worked for the company building these darned things. LOL

To add a little tid bit in this piece, the private brands of OMC, such as gale and such, they used the discontinued molds from Johnson/Evinrude for their product line and the parts were sold at a lesser cost. I noticed the same thing happened in the automotive industry. Certain countries would get the first line production of cars from a set of dies or molds then when a design upgrade would come along, the obsolete tooling would be sold to other countries. You'll notice that a lot of stuff that Johny/Rude changed remained in production for Gale and Sea King for several years following and that's mostly because the parts were cheaper to make and the cost was passed on to the consumer. A lot of reason that Gale was discontinued, was the fact that private companies could sell the same quality outboard as Johny/Rude could, for a lot less money and that ticked off a lot of dealerships.

I have ten bucks that says F_R will correct me on a few points here, but that's okay, because he's seen probably half of the parts go through production, that every one of us here have had our hands on. :D:D
 

F_R

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

The only thiing I'm going to say is that Evinrude, Johnson, and Gale parts all carry the same part number if the part is the same. Therefor, they all carried the same list price. We all got our parts from the same parts depot in Miami.

Check out this page from the price list. Note the "used by" column. Indicates Johnson, Evinrude, Gale, and/or Stern Drive.

Oh, yeah and about the question....Same motor, different trim in many but not all cases. Looks???? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think the old Gale Sea Bee is so ugly that it's beautiful
 

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kfa4303

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

I love the old sea bee look too. it looks like a droid out of start wars, or something. Happy T-day! Gobble, Gobble.
 

F_R

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

Notice all the parts priced at .03. They used to be .025 (two for a nickel). People had a fit when they raised it to 3 cents, a 20% increase.
 

1946Zephyr

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

Cool looking little motor. The "chipmunk cheeks" shrouding. That looks like the 3hp single. It appears that the See Bee line followed the Sea King Line in appearance. I had an older Sea King 12hp direct drive once that had the identical powerhead as the 1950 - 51 Fastwin. Then later the 12hp Buccaneer full shift models were almost identical to the 15hp Fastwins. Funny how they did that. Gale was good about mixing powerheads with different lower units in their product lines. It also appeared that Gale had a lot of their own parts that were never used on Johny/Rude motors. Those direct drive lower units found on the Sea Kings and See Bees being a good example, eventhough the eccentric type water pump they used was likely the same one that was used in the old Johnson TD's

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
 

HighTrim

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

As stated, both Johnson and Evinrude had their trimmed out motors. Such as the Javelins (Johnson) and Lark (Evinrude). To decide which is "fancier" is personal preference.....Javelin....cough, cough, Javelin..... ;)
 

Dhadley

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

As motors came off the line at OMC and were tested, the ones that started and ran OK were painted blue. The ones with issues were fixed and painted white. John and his son were in charge of fixing the ones with issues and the white paint. OK, maybe not.......
 

F_R

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

Cool looking little motor. The "chipmunk cheeks" shrouding. That looks like the 3hp single. It appears that the See Bee line followed the Sea King Line in appearance. I had an older Sea King 12hp direct drive once that had the identical powerhead as the 1950 - 51 Fastwin. Then later the 12hp Buccaneer full shift models were almost identical to the 15hp Fastwins. Funny how they did that. Gale was good about mixing powerheads with different lower units in their product lines. It also appeared that Gale had a lot of their own parts that were never used on Johny/Rude motors. Those direct drive lower units found on the Sea Kings and See Bees being a good example, eventhough the eccentric type water pump they used was likely the same one that was used in the old Johnson TD's

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone

Actually, the wedge head powerheads with direct drive lowers WERE used on some Evinrudes. I wish I could remember the models offhand. The 12hp was the Elto Speedster. The 1.5hp Gale was kin to the 1948-51 1.5hp Evinrude Sportsman. The 5D10 Gale neutral clutch lower unit was also used on the extremely popular Johnson TN-xx models. On the Gale it was married to the wedge head powerhead i.e. Evinrude. Talk about mix and match!!!
 

nwcove

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

ive always felt that the rudes had a bit more "bling", a bit fancier font on the decals, etc.
 

NoEcm

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

as motors came off the line at omc and were tested, the ones that started and ran ok were painted blue. The ones with issues were fixed and painted white. john and his son were in charge of fixing the ones with issues and the white paint. Ok, maybe not.......

lmao
 

1946Zephyr

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Re: Older Rudes & Jonny's So who is correct him or me!

Actually, the wedge head powerheads with direct drive lowers WERE used on some Evinrudes. I wish I could remember the models offhand. The 12hp was the Elto Speedster. The 1.5hp Gale was kin to the 1948-51 1.5hp Evinrude Sportsman. The 5D10 Gale neutral clutch lower unit was also used on the extremely popular Johnson TN-xx models. On the Gale it was married to the wedge head powerhead i.e. Evinrude. Talk about mix and match!!!

You must be talking about the 5hp wedge head motors? I happen to have a 1947 Sea King 5 hp that style. LOL It has good compression and spark, but the gas tank needs to be cleaned out. As I recall, that 12hp Elto Speedster, 12hp Sea King and 1950 - 51 Evinrude Fastwin were identical wedge head motors as well. I had the old Fastwin and Sea King, but haven't acquired the ELTO Speedster yet. I did have one of the 5hp Sea Kings that had the neutral clutch like the TN's that you're talking about. It had the side lever, whereas the TN had the flip lever on top of the tank. I may have to get my old Sea King 5hp fired up this weekend. :)
 
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